Mark,
This style registers 178 errors on the W3 validator (http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.monksdiner.com/entertainmentforum/index.php?styleid=108). Unfortunately, all the styles you released today have 78 or more errors in the code.
R'gards,
Jim
Hi Peggy,
You have 16 validation errors, but I think only a couple are style code related. The rest are because you use <br> instead of <br /> - which are in your forum descriptions, your footer and maybe sprinkled a couple other places. They are very easy to fix and will also help you figure out the few other code errors so that the style itself will validate 100%.
R'gards,
Jim
Mark Bolyard 11-13-2007, 05:13 AM I didn't claim them to be valid. Most skins on the market don't pass validation. Those that do pass, are typically no more than the default vbulletin theme, with slight changes made.
Oh, look there, vbulletin-faq itself has 222 errors :D
Even if the style is completely valid, with all the modifications that are available, chances are, it wouldn't be valid for long.
Mark Bolyard 11-13-2007, 05:43 AM Looks good Peggy.
Jim,
Looking at the bulk of your post, it's pretty clear that although you what people to think you are offering them advice, when what you are really doing is trying to prove to yourself that you're a know it all. I don't think there has been a positive post made by you without a hint of "Look dumbass, I'm right, your wrong" in it. And Jim, although your forum and thread list are valid... once you go beyond that into the post they are not.
I understand the purpose of having your pages validate, and I'm sure others do. Bottom line is, note everyone is a "expert" coder. Those that download free styles (or paid for that matter) are going to change them to their needs, so had it been valid in the first place, chances are they won't be for long. Doesn't make it necessarily right, but it's going to happen. Hm, must be a age thing that makes your posting style appear grumpy.
Mods / Admins. Sorry about the rant. I guess I'm just used to people that want to actually help others instead of down everything people do. And Jim, sorry to you if I'm reading you wrong, but really, you should go back through your post and look at how you sound.
I'm done.
La Grange 11-13-2007, 06:05 AM Looks good Peggy.
Jim,
Looking at the bulk of your post, it's pretty clear that although you what people to think you are offering them advice, when what you are really doing is trying to prove to yourself that you're a know it all. I don't think there has been a positive post made by you without a hint of "Look dumbass, I'm right, your wrong" in it. And Jim, although your forum and thread list are valid... once you go beyond that into the post they are not.
I understand the purpose of having your pages validate, and I'm sure others do. Bottom line is, note everyone is a "expert" coder. Those that download free styles (or paid for that matter) are going to change them to their needs, so had it been valid in the first place, chances are they won't be for long. Doesn't make it necessarily right, but it's going to happen. Hm, must be a age thing that makes your posting style appear grumpy.
Mods / Admins. Sorry about the rant. I guess I'm just used to people that want to actually help others instead of down everything people do. And Jim, sorry to you if I'm reading you wrong, but really, you should go back through your post and look at how you sound.
I'm done.If there were a thank you button I would hit it.:p
Mark Bolyard 11-13-2007, 06:08 AM I'm not looking for thanks. Just trying to point out that even though Jim may be trying to offer some help, they just come across as being crass. This wasn't a personal attack on him, I don't know him honestly. I'm just stating my opinion.
Thanks though T2C
Mike54 11-13-2007, 06:15 AM Hi Mark, it's good to see you.
Jim, I ~think~ you are trying to point others in a positive direction with some of your recent critiques, but it really would be nice if you could do so in a more positive manner. Frankly, you have been coming off as sounding pretty negative of late. I appreciate the effort you've put into getting your site to validate, as I've been working on one of my own. Yet this is the first time I believe I've mentioned it here and I've certainly not been pointing out validation errors on other members' sites.
The truth is people are going to use poor grammar and poor spelling, from time to time. And they are not going to have 100% XHTML transitional sites in most cases. But you know what? That's alright, because at the end of the day, these issues are really not that important. Try and let it go, OK?
Big Dan 11-13-2007, 07:48 AM Mark,
This style registers 178 errors on the W3 validator (http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.monksdiner.com/entertainmentforum/index.php?styleid=108). Unfortunately, all the styles you released today have 78 or more errors in the code.
R'gards,
Jim
Jim get off it already! I don't see the point in anyone running around pointing out other people's errors if it's not effecting the final outcome a majority of the posts I've seen by you lately are just pointing out code errors..why? The page still displays fine.out of the billions of pages on the internet, I'm sure ones that validate 100% are in the minority, spiders and most browsers are smart enough to overcome minor errors.. Perhaps the vaildator is too strict?
And yes before you go clicking on my sig links for some fire, I'm well aware of the errors on my sites and could careless.
@Mark: Sorry for bogarting your thread..I really like this style. :)
Peggy 11-13-2007, 02:51 PM I removed these posts from the skin release threads. A skin/style release thread is for skin releases, and for members to ask questions regarding the skins. Not for arguing/debates/criticism of the skin, it's code, or anything else.
Thanks for understanding.
I removed these posts from the skin release threads. A skin/style release thread is for skin releases, and for members to ask questions regarding the skins. Not for arguing/debates/criticism of the skin, it's code, or anything else.
Thanks for understanding.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were s'posed to give our answers in the form of a question. I'll be sure to phrase them differently, like, "If I want to use this nice looking style on my forum, would you be willing to fix the umpteen dozen errors in the code?"
Somehow I feel that wouldn't be acceptable either.
Please note: I do NOT go to your site, or the site of any of the other coders or designers to discuss problems with code (even though I am a member at many, including yours). I do it here at a vBulletin support site that has sections set aside for discussing all kinds of problems and asking all sorts of questions.
Please provide me with a list of topics that shouldn't be brought up here. I don't have a problem following the rules.
Jim
Joeychgo 11-13-2007, 05:18 PM Its not that jim - Its that people donate free skins for vBFAQ users and they dont need to be criticized at every turn about XHTML compliance.
XHTML compliant is nice, and by all means should be strived for, but its by no means required. The vast majority of sites out there are not compliant. I know what your thinking and that your trying to educate, but its coming off as criticism.
Those that feel criticized should read my posts again. I merely point out an issue. They can choose to do something about it or not. If I am attacked for bringing it up, I will deal with it. If the designer chooses to ridicule me for bringing it to their and their potential client's attention, then what does that say about what they really want? Is it just recognition for painting a pretty picture, or is it to support the vBulletin community with quality as well as style?
Look at some of the threads. The real reason it gets blown into gigantic proportions is the designers and their fan club that don't want people to know they make a few mistakes - and don't want to take the time to fix them or learn better. My simple few words of errors on a page or design brings the worst out in others. I use small text, smilies, greetings, a helpful tone or other means to appear less threatening and more helpful, but it makes absolutely no difference. Some just want me to be the bad guy so they don't have to look at theirselves.
Jim
La Grange 11-13-2007, 08:29 PM You keep pointing out errors that really don't matter, or at least they don't to the designer/coder. I for one am tired of hearing about this W3 Validator stuff.
Unfortunately, that's the attitude many coders take. Those that fail to utilize those tools usually don't do very good work. And they often can't stand it when someone points out the problems they give to others.
cc8balla 11-13-2007, 09:01 PM Yea, but why is it that important?
As long as the code functions like it should, and as long as the site looks good, what is the big deal about XHTML compliance?
I code things to work, I could care less about what the validator thinks about it. (I am not criticizing you Jim, just asking a curious question)
The curious question has been answered many times, even by better people than me. Part of this whole, blown-out-of-proportion issue stems from a guy who was having great difficulty with something on his forum. It turns out it was the sloppy code the designer contributed and at a large price.
Others have had very difficult times troubleshooting their problems. Even though the bad designer's code didn't cause the problem, it made it a lot more difficult to find the problem.
Many SEO professionals will talk about issues of Code:Content ratio and how much more advantageous less code and more content is. Good coding habits can eliminate extra code. Better coding habits can and do improve your SEO (although there are those here who have posted good articles to help you improve your code, but turn around and try to tell me it makes no difference).
How many times have you heard, "beauty is only skin deep?" Once you get into the inner workings of your forum and make your own modifications, or install some ready-made ones, you might find a problem, like a part of the page seems to be blank, or a style image doesn't line up, or even that you get javascript and database errors. There are lots of problems associated with bad coding habits. But some designers don't want to go to the trouble to make it right.
I like analogies...
A hot new item asks you to go to dinner, maybe dancing. You meet there and, oh, what a hottie. Lookin' goood, you think. As you're eating soup, you notice your fine lookin' date dribbles soup out the side of their mouth ever' slurp. That's nasty. You discover there's a cavity on the other side and your hot date is tryin' to keep the soup from touchin' it. Dribble, dribble.
Oh well, no biggie, right? So, off dancin' you go. Your new sweetheart looks great, ever'one's checkin' her/him out, you get on the dance floor and it's a really scary version of Elaine Benes' dance. Hardly anyone notices though and you are complimented on your choice of a partner - what a babe/hunk/whatever.
One thing leads to another, you take yer date home and it's not long before you're locked in kissy-face mode. It progresses and the garments begin to fall off. And there it is, under all that gorgeousness, something only you can see because you are the one who chose them and got this far...
... are you ready???
You think the best is nearly yours....
you finally... see ... it... iss...
The dirtiest pair a draw-wers you ever laid eyes on!
Yep, it looks good on the surface and it seems to work, so what's the big deal about a clean pair of undies? http://grumpsplace.com/images/smilies/didnt_know.gif
Jim
PS: I never said code had to validate 100%. I can take a bad dancer, even a little dribble now and again, but dirty drawers??? NO way!
Peggy 11-13-2007, 11:25 PM Look at some of the threads. The real reason it gets blown into gigantic proportions is the designers and their fan club that don't want people to know they make a few mistakes - and don't want to take the time to fix them or learn better. My simple few words of errors on a page or design brings the worst out in others. I use small text, smilies, greetings, a helpful tone or other means to appear less threatening and more helpful, but it makes absolutely no difference. Some just want me to be the bad guy so they don't have to look at theirselves.
Jim
LOL... I'm quite sure that our "fan clubs" are well aware that we make mistakes. That's why there are support threads. And if we didn't want to fix them, or learn better, we wouldn't bother to help our "fans".
Your message about code compliance has come across, many MANY times already. WE GOT THE MESSAGE. A long time ago. Now you're just sounding like a broken record, really. When someone feels that something is being shoved down their throat, they stop listening. Human nature. :yes:
Peggy 11-13-2007, 11:26 PM I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were s'posed to give our answers in the form of a question. I'll be sure to phrase them differently, like, "If I want to use this nice looking style on my forum, would you be willing to fix the umpteen dozen errors in the code?"
Somehow I feel that wouldn't be acceptable either.
Please note: I do NOT go to your site, or the site of any of the other coders or designers to discuss problems with code (even though I am a member at many, including yours). I do it here at a vBulletin support site that has sections set aside for discussing all kinds of problems and asking all sorts of questions.
Please provide me with a list of topics that shouldn't be brought up here. I don't have a problem following the rules.
Jim
LOL... oh stop pouting. You're not the first to have his posts moved :rolleyes:
LOL... I'm quite sure that our "fan clubs" are well aware that we make mistakes.
I think you are wrong there. Some do, but others don't care because you don't promote quality and they look up to you for guidance. The rest don't have any clue and that has been proven.
That's why there are support threads. And if we didn't want to fix them, or learn better, we wouldn't bother to help our "fans".
Maybe you should try asking your fans for support too.
Your message about code compliance has come across, many MANY times already. WE GOT THE MESSAGE. A long time ago. Now you're just sounding like a broken record, really. When someone feels that something is being shoved down their throat, they stop listening. Human nature. :yes:
Please speak only for yourself. It's quite evident that you object to any mention of a mistake you might have made.
LOL... oh stop pouting. You're not the first to have his posts moved :rolleyes:
And it won't be the last time you move my posts or find some other way to try to humiliate me (even though it's obvious I have no trouble doing that myself). You have made a point of putting me on display before, for your personal enjoyment and public humiliation as someone who knows they have influence over others. It's a childish and cowardly act I wish you would grow out of. I make a few relatively minor comments that bring someone's failings to the surface and some want to make a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Then when I try to defend my position, you keep at it until we get something like this post, which I agree is a major friggin' blowup. But I get pretty fed up with your power display when you could do much better by simply mediating the issue. Of course, idiot that I am, I can't just let you or others slam me and forget about it. I can't let you help to blow my minor comments way out of context, so I end up looking more the fool than I started out with.
Brandon handled the issue very gracefully because he actually cares about what he offers. He's not even the coder, but works hard to bring a quality product to his members and clients. He took my comments exactly the way they were meant and thanked me. He demonstrated that it doesn't take a lot of effort to get clean code.
One guy here stands out time after time. He's a damn 14 year old punk kid, but he's got a sharp mind and an eye and a quest for quality. The kid asks questions all the time and offers "beta" versions because he really wants his code to be right. He makes me ashamed that I have a "anti-kid complex," because he's a lot better than a lot of us around here, including me. He's too young to have this better than thou attitude, or to be upset when his errors are pointed out. He actually wants to fix them and he doesn't call me or anyone foul names or try to humiliate them. I've tried to help him a couple times and, by golly, he said thanks.
There are many other coders and designers and distributors that also provide a high quality product. Everyone thinks I worked hard to make my site validate. Truth is, I got a valid style from the start and it was free. I found some modifications and add-ons that came clean or were made clean by their programmers. Some I had to do myself, and those I validated, but my contribution was very small.
I belong to a number of support sites besides this one because I find value in all of them. But I have never been attacked and maligned for promoting a high standard as I do here - and usually by designers and coders that don't have a professional's desire to offer a truly quality product. When I thought the response to the alert of some errant code would be met by, "I'll take care of it" or "what can I do to fix it", I was wrong. I didn't realize the response I would get would instead be, "I don't care, I don't have time, it doesn't matter and you're a jerk for even bringing it up."
Jim
Mike54 11-14-2007, 03:26 AM One guy here stands out time after time. He's a damn 14 year old punk kid, but he's got a sharp mind and an eye and a quest for quality.
Am I the only one having a lot of difficulty finding the encouragement in that statement? You need to be more careful Jim, that almost came off sounding like a compliment.
I didn't realize the response I would get would instead be, "I don't care, I don't have time, it doesn't matter and you're a jerk for even bringing it up."
Let's not overly dramatize the situation, OK? Nobody said you were a jerk for bringing it up. However you've gone well beyond merely 'bringing it up'.
Peggy 11-14-2007, 05:10 AM Jim I've seen your comments on other sites and the replies. So don't even try make it look as tho this is the only site where you get in trouble. We both know that ain't true, lol.
I will say this.... when a post needs moving, it will be moved, whether yours or someone else's. I work on this site for the good of the site, and the good of our members. That may or may not include moving a post or posts to keep things organized. If you choose to think that moving one of your posts is done for the sole purpose of humiliating you... well, you have a problem.
Now, this has gone beyond silly, well into ridiculous. Your latest tantrum above is full of false accusations, etc. Yeah I could go through and pick each sentence out and argue the point, but I just don't have the time on my hands that you apparently do.
Have fun :)
La Grange 11-14-2007, 06:13 AM Unfortunately, that's the attitude many coders take. Those that fail to utilize those tools usually don't do very good work. And they often can't stand it when someone points out the problems they give to others.
Do you even look at what I release? Or do you just jump on the W3 validater thing in every post. Cause this is the second time you've called me a coder, when im a designer.:yes:
Big Dan 11-14-2007, 07:47 AM Let's not overly dramatize the situation, OK? Nobody said you were a jerk for bringing it up. However you've gone well beyond merely 'bringing it up'.
I may of said something along those lines, Mike. :eek:
Do you even look at what I release? Or do you just jump on the W3 validater thing in every post. Cause this is the second time you've called me a coder, when im a designer.:yes:
On noes! You mustn't design if you cannot code. What's this world coming to? :D
Okay I'll be good, just had to get that out of my system.
Peggy 11-14-2007, 08:42 AM LOL... I've often admitted that I am no coder. Never will be. But give me an idea for a design and watch me go ;)
Mike54 11-14-2007, 09:36 AM I may of said something along those lines, Mike.
Then I stand corrected. :)
The issue of validation is an interesting one. When it first arose here, I went to work on one of my sites and managed to get the forum home page to fully validate. I learned a lot along the way and I realize I still have much to learn. There were 160-something errors on the page and I eliminated all of them, so I had a sense of personal victory when I was finished. However the forum looks and works no differently than it did before. It worked with the 160-something errors as well as it works with no errors.
I think the time will come when we will really have to watch our P's and Q's, but that time is not here, at least not yet. I know I will be very careful with any additions or changes in the future and I'm glad to know some of what to look out for, but I'm certainly not approaching code validation with any sense of urgency on my other sites.
Your latest tantrum above is full of false accusations, etc. Yeah I could go through and pick each sentence out and argue the point, but I just don't have the time on my hands that you apparently do.
You forget too soon. The one "accusation" I want you to think about was when you took a heated discussion I had on another website and used it for sport over here. Childish and cowardly. You claim you didn't know that was me, but I use the same name. Even if you didn't know it was me, why would you want to do something as immature as that? Did it make you feel better about yourself?
@T2C: This discussion has been about coders and designers. I've seen what you do.
@no one in particular. As long as you continue to look only at the surface of things, you will never achieve what you think you have.
Peggy 11-14-2007, 03:00 PM You forget too soon. The one "accusation" I want you to think about was when you took a heated discussion I had on another website and used it for sport over here. Childish and cowardly. You claim you didn't know that was me, but I use the same name. Even if you didn't know it was me, why would you want to do something as immature as that? Did it make you feel better about yourself?
hmmmm... when/if I have time, I'll have to go through these threads and find where I said I didn't know it was you. I don't recall ever saying that. ;)
Who really cares if you knew or not? It doesn't make it any less childish or cowardly.
Big Dan 11-14-2007, 04:41 PM http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/12/baitstealinwankfishoa9.jpg
lol Guys take it easy.
Peggy 11-14-2007, 05:12 PM Who really cares if you knew or not? It doesn't make it any less childish or cowardly.Whatever you say Jim. This ongoing silliness is what's childish. If that's what you want to look like, go for it.
I'm finished. :)
Dave A 11-15-2007, 04:43 AM Whatever you say Jim. This ongoing silliness is what's childish. If that's what you want to look like, go for it.
I'm finished. :)
Oh damn. We haven't had a personal flame war like that here for a while. AND I only find out about after it's over. Oh well. Another time maybe I'll get lucky and see all the fireworks live.
Perhaps more seriously and on the subject of validation, I'd like to endorse Mike's post.
The issue of validation is an interesting one. When it first arose here, I went to work on one of my sites and managed to get the forum home page to fully validate. I learned a lot along the way and I realize I still have much to learn. There were 160-something errors on the page and I eliminated all of them, so I had a sense of personal victory when I was finished. However the forum looks and works no differently than it did before. It worked with the 160-something errors as well as it works with no errors.
I think the time will come when we will really have to watch our P's and Q's, but that time is not here, at least not yet. I know I will be very careful with any additions or changes in the future and I'm glad to know some of what to look out for, but I'm certainly not approaching code validation with any sense of urgency on my other sites.
Possibly my only addition to the content and sentiment of that post is that for me, running my pages through the validator is a personal habit. Getting the code changes to pass muster is a personal challenge. It saves the trouble of someone coming back to me and saying something doesn't work as it should in some obscure browser. And I vaguely suspect that there are possibly some subtle long term benefits on the SEO front.
However, I don't have the urge to run around pointing out the errors of anyone else's code. Although I admit I once did PM a skin designer the small tweaks I'd made when implimenting their skin to pass validation. I didn't get a reply. I don't know if they modified their code. And I don't care.
I also don't care if the debate gets all heated on the two opposing sides of subject either. You folks go knock each other out. But for the spectators, let's understand why these folks are fighting.
We've got to recognise that we are dealing with personalities here. Particularly the very different personalities inherent in designers (artistic) and coders (analytical).
Artistic people find great pleasure in "breaking the mould" and find detail tedious. In fact, detail is actually a problem, because when they focus on it, it actually harms their creativity.
For coders, precision is critical. Yes, they achieve amazing things, they are creative, but it comes out of a very disciplined regime, and they produce a totally different product. You'll find that any real coder will take as much personal pride in how the result is achieved as in the result itself.
For the main protaganists, by all means beat each other to death, or take a little time out to read Personality Plus by Florence Littauer.
Peggy 11-15-2007, 05:25 AM You might want to read the whole thing before you call it a "flame war", dear lol
Now I find this interesting......
Artistic people find great pleasure in "breaking the mould" and find detail tedious. In fact, detail is actually a problem, because when they focus on it, it actually harms their creativity.
For coders, precision is critical. Yes, they achieve amazing things, they are creative, but it comes out of a very disciplined regime, and they produce a totally different product. You'll find that any real coder will take as much personal pride in how the result is achieved as in the result itself.
I have to take a little bit of exception to your "find details tedious" remark, Dave. Have you ever designed a vB skin? Or even graphics for a webpage? If not, then I think you'd be very surprised as to just how much detail there is in designing. Detail is not a problem for me, and I'd hazard a guess here, for any other designer that I know of. I'm not sure where that idea comes from. ;) Detail certainly doesn't harm our creativity. Another myth.
I, as well as almost any designer I know, take just as much pride in how my designs are achieved as in the end result itself. I'm just not anal about xhtml validation. :) I cross-check my designs with IE, FF and Opera, they work perfectly in all three, and I'm happy.
Dave A 11-15-2007, 05:49 AM hmmmmm... interesting....
You might want to read the whole thing before you call it a "flame war" lol
It got personal. I had to resist telling you and Jim to just get married already :D
I have to take a little bit of exception to your "find details tedious" remark, Dave. Have you ever designed a vB skin? Or even graphics for a webpage? If not, then I think you'd be very surprised as to just how much detail there is in designing. Detail is not a problem for me, and I'd hazard a guess here, for any other designer that I know of. I'm not sure where that idea comes from. ;) Detail certainly doesn't harm our creativity. Another myth.
I take just as much pride in how my designs are achieved as in the end result itself. I'm just not anal about xhtml validation. :) I cross-check my designs with IE, FF and Opera, they work perfectly in all three, and I'm happy
A question. If you could do the design without working through all that detail, would you?
Peggy 11-15-2007, 05:53 AM It got personal. I had to resist telling you and Jim to just get married already :D ROFL!!
A question. If you could do the design without working through all that detail, would you?Of course I would. Wouldn't anyone? But I can't. There is very fine detail in everything a designer does. So the question really doesn't make any sense, at least to me.
Dave A 11-15-2007, 06:27 AM Now any coders care to answer the same question?
The clue is in the W3C validation debate anyway. It's just another detail, arguably less demanding than all the detail stuff you have to do to get the job done.
For the analytical nature of the coder, it is a step that must be done before the product is considered finished.
For the artistic nature of the designer, it isn't needed for a finished product.
My son is a coder. My mother's an artist. And I've read the book.
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