the vBulletin v4.0 leak -

[Peggy]

I'm sure alot of you have seen it all over other forums "The big leak" :rolleyes: , so let me provide a bit of explanation -

At some point last night (Wednesday), while changing forum permissions at vb.com a goof was made for the private admin/mod forums and all that was private was made public - for at least 30 minutes that we know of. Long enough for screenshots to be taken, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, those screenshots made it to Photobucket and Imageshack, among other image hosting sites. I joined in a chat with many vB members and friends, and watched in amazement as people made posts and displayed the screen shots on vb.com, .org and a host of other sites, including IPB's support forum. Of course the posts/threads on vb.com and .org were promptly deleted.

If you're interested, you'll find the screenshot links as well as various Twitter posts, and a link to an "Inside info" article. :rolleyes: http://forum.vbulletinsetup.com/f23/vbulletin-4-0-going-cost-even-17392.html

I truly hope that whoever flubbed on the forum permissions doesn't find their head rolling. It was a mistake (I'm assuming?).

If anyone has anymore info, feel free to add to this thread.

It was a wild night, last night.

[Mike54]

I imagine it was a mistake, but it could have been a set-up to stick a toe in the water. If it was a mistake, somebody is really getting familiar with the top of her/his shows at the moment. Ah, well, mistakes happen.

It's no matter, it's going to be what it's going to be. Knowing about it now or knowing about it in July really makes no difference to me. I think IB is making some pretty serious mistakes with these new policies (as one person asked, what is next, PPV vB.org?), but they own the business and not me.

I imagine my sites will remain 3.X sites, unless the 4.0 upgrade price is ~extremely~ cheap. I suspect it won't be, which is why they have likely dropped the annual renewals.

[Peggy]

I don't know what it will cost us to upgrade to 4.0, as I didn't see that in the screenies. I believe the prices descussed were only for new purchases.

What is going to be a big problem for them is cutting off ticket support after 30 days. If you want ticket support after that time, it'll cost you. That's absurd. It won't make a difference to me, I'm sure, as I've rarely had to use the ticket system, did so only when I was instructed to by Steve or Wayne on the forum. They won't be doing that for much longer ;) .

[Mike54]

If they see tech support dropping off after 30 days, then why bother charging for it?

Their tech support was once a selling point, now it is just going to be another way to gouge their customers.

I see the vB-related forums are all pretty quiet about the leak. With the exception of Brandon's site, of course. I thought the vBSEO board would light up with it, but it hasn't happened. I suspect most people are taking the same position as IPB - it could happen to them, just as easily.

[Peggy]

yep. I'm sure it's assumed over there that if vB goes belly-up or even has a significant decline in business, vbseo will too.

[Joeychgo]

Here is a part to really worry about...

THIS is what will kill them. If they are smart, they first offer a minimal upgrade fee for the suite. That will make current customers happy. Then, they can increase that fee on a version by version basis.

[Peggy]

Here is a part to really worry about...

THIS is what will kill them. If they are smart, they first offer a minimal upgrade fee for the suite. That will make current customers happy. Then, they can increase that fee on a version by version basis.I kind of agree and disagree at the same time.

What's going to do them in, in large part, is another increase so soon after the last one. PLUS, raising prices when people are losing jobs, auto companies are going belly-up, houses are being foreclosed on, etc. The big problem is, they don't care.

[Joeychgo]

Not just that. $400 for a full site suite is too high. What you will have is someone making a $100 addon that does the same stuff, only better. And vB wont sell suites like they think.

We've already seen how good they are at creating addons. Look at the photo gallery. What a joke.

[Dave A]

I've just paid my annual renewal on an owned licence. So I take it I'm not getting a year of upgrades then? :(

I believe IB/Jelsoft will be in breach. But is it worth suing? :rolleyes:

There are some huge sites that still run on vB 2.x - I suspect Jelsoft is going to lose a lot of repeat income going this way.

Peggy and Joey - I don't see why you should keep this thread in the moderators forum. The cat is out the bag and it's not likely to get stuffed back in. Let the vB-FAQ members get involved here. If you really don't want it in open view, could we please set up that insider members only forum I suggest from time to time and put it in there.

[Peggy]

Not just that. $400 for a full site suite is too high. What you will have is someone making a $100 addon that does the same stuff, only better. And vB wont sell suites like they think.

We've already seen how good they are at creating addons. Look at the photo gallery. What a joke.$400?? I thought I read $285. Of course, it's all just speculation atm. Altho I'm quite sure that they're talking about something else right now... as in how to do some much-needed damage control.


Dave you're right. Every other vB support site is talking about it (except of course, vb.org), so why not. Joey if you want to move it out to the forums, I'm ok with it.

From what I got out of it, we'll have to pay a fee to upgrade to 4.0. After that point there will be no more upgrade fees, no renewal fees, etc, until a next major version (i.e. 5.0) is on the horizon. However, if you want ticket support, it will be $80 per year after your initial 30-day ticket support period.

That's one of the selling points of the big vB 4.0 "Suite". If one purchases the regular 4.0 license, that's what they get - the license and 30 days of free ticket support, unless they purchase ticket support for $80.

The "Suite" will include vB 4.0, 1 yr of free ticket support, the blog, cms, pt, and god only knows what else - for $285 (as of now).

[Big Dan]

I already posted my thoughts on Brandon's site, I'll repost some here. The support thing I kind of understand -- Free support for the life of the license doesn't scale thousands of customers with minimal ($40) upgrade fees that have unlimited free technical support, is a little crazy. It was a good selling point but now that vB has the market share, I guess feel that gimmick is no longer needed. Now more than ever that they appear to be upping the price by a nice percentage, the support SHOULD BE included for the life of the license, IMHO. It still doesn't scale but the increased income should enable more support personnel to be hired. As for the support thing, I look at is as hey now it's even easier for me to sell my vB services as long as it's cheaper than vB's support per ticket or yearly fees. ;)

As it is now since IB took over nothing good has come out it. Increase in upgrade fees for expired licenses. As it is now I have 1 customer that I host who's owned licenses expired a a few months back and he refuses to pay for the renewals as he puts it 'I get gouged by 50% just because I didn't renew by a certain date' You know what? He's right. It's the same download, same bandwidth, same everything as someone who renewed before the expiry date.. It's nothing but a ludicrous upcharge Bank of America style.

Not to mention since IB took the reins all that's come out of vB that's worth using is paid add-ons. No big surprise but they're alienating their customer base.

Believe it or not, I'm cool with the increase in price for 4.0 we pay for all software that way. You didn't upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista or Office 2003 to Office 2007 for free and I understand that line of thinking. However, I do think the upgrade to 4.0 should be free for currently licensed boards as that's what we were promised when we bought vBulletin. Pay $25, no wait, now $40 a year now for upgrades and you're set for life. When we have to renew our licenses after 4.0 is released have us agree to the new licensing terms and go from that. That's probably the best course of action even though it's going to still piss people off but you cannot please everyone.

Truth be told, I could careless what they charge new customers for 4.0, it's how they deal with their current customers with up-to-date licenses that will be the tell all of whether of not my forums remain vBulletin powered. I'll wait for an official announcement to make my decision as for we all we know these screen-shots could be fudged.

[Peggy]

... as for we all we know these screen-shots could be fudged.Now there's an idea that I haven't seen mentioned til now.

Interesting.

[Brandon Sheley]

Thanks for the link Peggy :)
I would of posted it that day, but I was trying to login as "loco.m" and I locked myself out :p

[Peggy]

what link is that Brandon? And where'd you lock yourself out of? lol

[Brandon Sheley]

what link is that Brandon? And where'd you lock yourself out of? lol

The link in the first post to the thread I made on vbsetup, I saw it in my linkbacks :)

I locked myself out of here the other day, trying to login as loco.m :o

[Big Dan]

Now there's an idea that I haven't seen mentioned til now.

Interesting.

:) However based on some of vB's top guns reactions (threads removed, chats on IRC, etc) it likely that they are not fudged. ;)

[Peggy]

The link in the first post to the thread I made on vbsetup, I saw it in my linkbacks :)

I locked myself out of here the other day, trying to login as loco.m :oLOL - leave it to you.. Did you forget that you asked me to change your username?

[Brandon Sheley]

LOL - leave it to you.. Did you forget that you asked me to change your username?

I had it changed on a lot of sites that week, I didn't remember if I made it up this way too :o
It's all sorted out now though :)

[Peggy]

Good, then bring your butt over here once in a while.

[Mike54]

Dan, I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. With just one note - I noticed the comment was made that after 30 days, the need for technical support drops off. So, why charge the premium rate to provide a service they admit they really don't need to provide?

It looks to me as if they are trying to bait up the new customer. We know you will likely never need to contact us for support, but you better pay us the $80, just in case.

As for the price increase, it is what it is. We can scream like mashed cats about it, but history shows that won't really accomplish much of anything. That is why I say it really doesn't make any difference whether we learned about this now or had to wait until July. It is what it is.

The 'suite' idea is nothing new, but it seems to me they should have offered each script at a premium price. If you buy two add-ons, you get a better price. If you buy the whole enchilada, that is the best price deal. I'm not to fussed about any of their add-ons. I tried vBlogetin, which was much better than the vB script, and it was a loser on my sites. So I am not interested in purchasing any blogging scripts. I've no need for project tools, whatsoever. So, I can't be bothered to consider the CMS script, just because I have zero use for the others.

Dave, they will get around the legal angle quite easily. You will get your year's worth of upgrades. For the 3.X branch only. And watch to see how they will work this out. In a year, when your download time expires, the only option you will have available to purchase is an upgrade to 4.X.

Anyone want to wager that we will see 5.X faster than we might have imagined?

[Joeychgo]

My post on vb.com



Nothing could be further from the truth. Our long-term customers are what our business is built on, and we will always try to do right by them. I think you'll find that everything coming with the release of 4.0 will be good. Inside the team, we are incredibly excited about what the whole 4.x series will bring, and we're pretty confident that you'll feel the same.


I'm one of those long term customers I suppose. I have held licenses for a little more then 5 years. I have had and currently hold numerous licenses.

What I see here is simple. I saw no price increases until IB bought Jelsoft. We saw one almost right away, and are now facing another one.

What most people might not be considering is that IB is raising prices, in part anyway, to recoup the cost of purchasing Jelsoft. This is a common practice among businesses who buy other businesses.

That aside Ray. Let's talk just a little about culture and changes. The price increases are not all that bad in and of themselves. But long term customers are not accustomed to such things in the vB culture.

IB seems to have something of a history of ignoring the customs and culture of an asset. For example: Audi Lovers unite - against Internet Brands (http://www.vbulletin-faq.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14402) - That is another case of where the customers were ignored and it backfired.

After reading all of the leaked screenshots... I see one critical thing missing. I dont see any discussion about how to make current customers happy.

I do see discussion about how to deal with a tsumani of negative comments, I do see discussion about what the bean counters have considered acceptable losses of the customer base. I see everything but anyone caring about customers and wanting to take care of the loyal vBulletin customers. This is another thing that vB culture is not accustomed to.

What I see is not only 2 price increases, but also a loss of product choice (leased licenses) and a loss of services (support after 30 days)

SO its not just an increase, but also a loss of what we're getting for our money.

One word about leased licenses. I no longer use them. But its how I got started. I frankly might not have started with vB had I not had the choice of a leased licence. So because you had that option, you ended up with a customer that currently holds 6 owned licenses and has held many more over time and sold those sites off.

So realize that many people start their first forum with a less expensive, leased license. Dont discount that volume of customers. They are the ones who end up creating hacks on vb.org, creating styles to make the product look better and also creating additional customers for you via word of mouth advertising.

Ray, I would strongly suggest you reconsider all of this by first asking the question: How can we make our customers happy first.

[Peggy]

I was wondering when you were going to post. It was worth the wait.
And I do agree with you.

[Dave A]

Hmm. I wonder if owned licences will still be transferable...

[Peggy]

I would assume so. There was nothing in the screenshots to indicate otherwise.

[Joeychgo]

I wonder why BamaStangGuy was banned from vb.com

[Peggy]

most likely because he went in there on the attack. He's not the only one who got banned.

[Peggy]

Read this thread. http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308388

It's a bit lighter. Poor Steve, lol

[Mike54]

You know, when I saw gasoline prices increase by 39¢ this week, I was outraged. But I've yet to urinate all over anyone because of it. I've not raised my voice with anyone, nor have I posted (ad nauseum) on any forums because of it.

The problem being created at .com is that a very small and very vocal minority are doing little more than ranting and raving. If you have a problem, then let's sit down and discuss the problem. If you're upset, tell me why you're upset and let me try to find a way to resolve it. If you're going to rant, then I'm already finished listening to you. If I ever need someone ranting at me, I'll get re-married. So just act like a responsible adult and that is how I will view you.

What I fear most is anyone with serious concerns is going to fall through the cracks created by this small and vocal minority. I have to think IB can now see whatever decision they make is going to undergo considerable scrutiny, so let's take a deep breath and see what they have to say. I can p*ss, moan and groan endlessly on the .com forums, but the bottom line remains they have my money. So what do I have to gain by b*tching at them, when I am not even sure what their plans are going to be.

Excuse me, I'm starting to rant here. :oops: Here, someone else can use the soapbox and I'll shut up.

[Peggy]

Rant away.

But I see a real big difference between a .39 cent increase and an over $100 increase.

[Mike54]

I see the difference too. Over the course of one year, that gasoline increase will cost me approximately $135. And would you look at that? That's more than the vB increase will cost. Go figure, eh?

I think some of it is keeping everything in perspective.

The biggest problem comes in when you start looking at multiple licenses.

I do see what you're saying about the suite offerings. I'm not interested in any of the add-ons, but I think they should offer them individually. Buy one and pay the premium price. Buy two and get a better deal. Buy all three (who really needs the project tools anyway??) and get the best deal. It's not too tough to sort that out and I am sure IB will see that.

I'm not trying to develop anything for the latest and greatest version of vB, whereas you are. Which means I don't have the need to upgrade, whereas you do.

If IB adopts a hard line concerning upgrades, I will run 3.8.2 as long as I am able. To date I've yet to see anything about 4.0 that makes me feel I need to upgrade anyway. It's been pointed out on several occasions that there are still several forums running on vB 2.X. I know of one fairly popular forum running on 3.0.X, so it's not as if it cannot be done.

[Dave A]

I think the buzz around what is essentially a fairly significant value proposition change is entirely unsurprising - in all quarters. The vB community has shown that much smaller issues can cause a significant stir, so who is surprised that a major change generates so much "ranting."

IB and Jelsoft surely expected this, hence the back room discussions in the first place.

The problem right now is the community discussion is speculative - we do not know the full exent of the upcoming new value proposition. When I look at what we "know" so far, the picture has to be far from complete. Either that or the income from what is essentially an "access-to-upgrades" fee is a lot less than income from new sales.

The only assumption I'm prepared to make is that IB does not want to make less money out of the Jelsoft operation. So dropping the annual upgrade fee is an interesting choice. There is a lot to be said for reliable income streams, and at face value it means that any new features that might come with a major version upgrade has to be worth full price to an existing licence holder.

There are ways of dealing with this upgrade value challenge, and I wait with some interest to see exactly what the new deal will be.

If it's not worth it I'll be casting my vote with my credit card by keeping it firmly in my wallet.

[Peggy]

Dropping both the annual renewal fee and the leased licenses - yes very surprising.

[Mike54]

If it's not worth it I'll be casting my vote with my credit card by keeping it firmly in my wallet.
That may be a very common vote.

I'm like you, seeing the potential loss in revenue from upgrade fees and leased licenses has me sitting up and paying a lot more attention.

[Joeychgo]

Dropping both the annual renewal fee and the leased licenses - yes very surprising.


And maybe concerning.

There are possible pros and cons out there on this.

For starters, by dropping the annual renewal fee, I am going to make the assumption that major versions wont be supported with updates for as long as we're accustomed to. This may mean security vulnerabilities and other minor bugs / updates might not be addressed for as long a period. So you may be almost forced to upgrade to the next major version.

However. If the only way they make money is to release new major versions, they will almost be forced to add more and more features at a quicker pace.

Me... I am most worried about things that dont directly affect me. Such as leased licenses. I got started on a leased license, and might have not started if I had to spend $400 for a whole suite. I didnt know if my first forum would succeed nor did I know if I would make any money to justify the cost.

By ignoring these start up customers, logically you will have less new forums popping up. Thus, over time, less new ideas, less new hackers, etc.

At the end of the day, the overall system isnt broken. Why are they fixing it? Raise prices, sure. I can buy into that. Create good solid add-ons that can be sold. I can buy into that too. But IB is really messing with the vBulletin culture and in the end, vBulletin may be becoming just another software package.

[Floris]

Ifor at least 30 minutes that we know of

Almost exactly 12 minutes, not "at least 30".

[Dave A]

I'm guessing Floris is an analytical :p

[Peggy]

Almost exactly 12 minutes, not "at least 30".lol, thanks Floris for correcting me on such an unimportant point. I'm sure that I was on vb.com for more than 12 minutes when it was visible, and I would have guessed that it would take more than 12 minutes to make all of those screenshots.

eh, no problem, I stand corrected. :)

[Mike54]

I'm guessing Floris is an analytical
Nahhh, he said 'almost'. Nothing analytical about that.

[Dave A]

:rofl:

[Peggy]

Now guys, play nice. :spank:

[Floris]

I'm guessing Floris is an analytical :p

It was Kier who fixed the permissions and told me it was public for 12 minutes. Nothing analytical about it. It's a fact. Just informing Peggy.

[Dave A]

Only an analytical would raise the time issue, Floris ;)
In the grand scheme of things, exactly how long the area was public is fluff compared to the fact that the leak occured at all.

Anyway, one good thing out of the incident - it advances the cause for a revamp of the Admin CP forum permissions manager. Every time I add a user group or forum with complex permissions I cr*p myself that I'm going to be showing my underwear along the way.

[Mike54]

See Dave, I told you. :innocent:

It seems the length of time vB.com's arse was shining is pretty picayune, but it did pull Floris off the sidelines for the first time in well over a year. So something positive came from it all.

[Peggy]

yer a sly one, you are...

[Mike54]

No, I'm the innocent one. :yes:

[Peggy]

....ummmm :no:

[Mike54]

....ummmm :no:
Yeah, but you only say that because it's true.

[Peggy]

ok someone wake Mike up, he's dreaming.....

[Dave A]

I thought we were all angels... :innocent:

[Peggy]

Now THAT is funny! :rofl:

[Dave A]

OK. OK - I confess. I'm an analytical too. :o

I do try to stop short of being anal retentive, though :(

[Joeychgo]

I just renewed one of my licenses.

When you renew, the screen says....

Owned License Renewal
Purchasing this will renew your owned license. Doing so will extend your members' area access for 1 year, allowing you to download the latest versions of vBulletin.
I think this makes it pretty clear that you should be able to upgrade to vB 4 if your license is active.



.

[Peggy]

That really does leave no doubt. If they try to charge members for vB4, after reading that - they be trouble. :yes:

[Big Dan]

Well when you download vBulletin you have to agree to an ELUA that specificly states:



Jelsoft reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

[Joeychgo]

Well when you download vBulletin you have to agree to an ELUA that specificly states:


The ELUA means zero in this case. When you purchase the update, there is no ELUA - just what I quoted. That is called a sales contract. They offer something for a price, you pay the price. They must deliver as promised.

Legally I believe they would be bound by that. Now. That is just for the upgrade to 4.0, not the 'suite'. They could certainly charge additional for the suite. But for major vb releases, they would have to stop selling renewals first.

All it means is if you have an active, owned license, they likely will have to give you 4.0 free. If you have an unowned license, or an inactive (not renewed) license, they dont have to give you anything either.

My recommendation is, go to vBulletin (http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1896637-804495?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.vbulletin.com%2F) and renew your vb license immediately before they realize this and close renewals.



:)

[Dave A]

Legally I believe they would be bound by that.
That's my understanding too. It's what makes the talk of a fee for existing licence holders to upgrade to 4.0 "interesting." :p

[Big Dan]

I didn't realize that but that was still my argument from day one. They cannot promise you upgrades then decide because their doing an over haul of vB not to deliver those upgrades. To make an analogy: That's like me buying a new Lincoln with a service contract that guarantees oil changes every 3k then Lincoln not delivering on those oil changes because they decided to re-engineer the oil. It not's my fault Jelsoft had to scrap the current code base and rebuild it, their failure to plan for the future isn't my fault and shouldn't effect me.

Even if they could legally do that, it isn't the right thing to do. After my upgrade period expires then feel free to change the terms of the agreement. No one is happy about paying more money for the same product BUT at least it would more fair to their current license holders.

I do wonder how Jelsoft being an UK based company, even though it's now wholly owned by a US company plays into this. The UK courts tend to be more pro-consumer than US courts but perhaps their consumer laws are different?

[Mike54]

I just want to point out how incredibly simple it would be for IB to issue a statement, clarifying their position with respect to current license holders. The fact they have not is beyond belief. Unless they are adopting the line that bad press is better than no press.

[Peggy]

I didn't realize that but that was still my argument from day one. They cannot promise you upgrades then decide because their doing an over haul of vB not to deliver those upgrades. To make an analogy: That's like me buying a new Lincoln with a service contract that guarantees oil changes every 3k then Lincoln not delivering on those oil changes because they decided to re-engineer the oil. It not's my fault Jelsoft had to scrap the current code base and rebuild it, their failure to plan for the future isn't my fault and shouldn't effect me.

Even if they could legally do that, it isn't the right thing to do. After my upgrade period expires then feel free to change the terms of the agreement. No one is happy about paying more money for the same product BUT at least it would more fair to their current license holders.

I do wonder how Jelsoft being an UK based company, even though it's now wholly owned by a US company plays into this. The UK courts tend to be more pro-consumer than US courts but perhaps their consumer laws are different?They seem to be finding a way around everything, apparently. :rolleyes:





I just want to point out how incredibly simple it would be for IB to issue a statement, clarifying their position with respect to current license holders. The fact they have not is beyond belief. Unless they are adopting the line that bad press is better than no press.I could not agree with you more on this.

[2dub]

I'm still holding off on renewing mine, at least for now.

[JWL]

WOW

All I need to say is wow

Let me add

JKHFSKJGIHT$IUGmsckjwdiygei uyfdUHBD yuguy$vb$HB42EJEROKJDVOHEFGR

OK I am drunk

[JWL]

I am drunk, does that count for something"?

[Peggy]

Not a whole lot ;)

[RedHotChili]

I just renewed one of my licenses.

When you renew, the screen says....

Owned License Renewal
Purchasing this will renew your owned license. Doing so will extend your members' area access for 1 year, allowing you to download the latest versions of vBulletin.
I think this makes it pretty clear that you should be able to upgrade to vB 4 if your license is active.



.That's what I've been saying all along. If you have a new license like I do you're entitled to free upgrades for up to a year, according to the contract, and that would include 4.0 should it be released before the year is up.

[Mike54]

One would think IB would wake up and see the ill will being created by their cavalier attitude toward their customers.

Why not get in front of what they are planning, so their customer base knows what to expect? The suggestion they haven't developed pricing is ludicrous. Who would develop a product without knowing if it could be sold competitively?

They allow the silly speculation to continue on the vB.com site. In the so-doing, they are ignoring customers that have reasonable concerns about how IB sees the future unfolding. I've tried posting to the Licensed Customers forum over at .com, but the signal to noise ratio over there is in the bin.

Word has it current license holders will receive special consideration under the new IB sales policies. What a hoot. I've a license coming up for renewal and damned if I am coming off so much as a cent without knowing what my dollars are buying. It's all about decisions. If IB makes the decision to sting me for holding back and waiting for details, then I will have to make the decision as to which of their competitors will get my dollars.

I like the vB script, but I do not care for IB's business practices. And it looks as if they are going to continue allowing a matter of principle become a deal-breaker.

If anyone is interested, I have something for sale. So line up and give me your money. No, I have no idea of what I am selling you and why are you worried in the first place? Just give me your money. C'mon, this technique is working for IB.

Or is it?

[Peggy]

I can't say that I disagree with you, Mike.

[Mike54]

I used to stop to fill up with gasoline at a station right on my way to and from work. The owner's wife couldn't even say thank you when I would pay her, so I decided it was time to take my dollars and shop elsewhere. I now drive by that station to get to another that is generally selling gas for a higher price. But the employees there realize who is paying their wage and they show their appreciation for it.

I'm not going to do business with someone just because I have in the past. If I feel something is lacking in the merchant/consumer relationship, I am perfectly willing to look elsewhere. As Peggy and I have discussed in private, I am playing around with a couple of the free forum solutions and I have also been checking out the demo of a paid solution's very recent major release. There are options available to us. And if I am exchanging my dollars for someone's product and services, then I will purchase the products and services I want. Not those that a company wants to force on me. Maybe it will cost me a nickel more, but if I can get what I want then it is money well-spent.

I've seen vB license holders being placated because Ray posted the names of the vB team on the .com forums. Gee, that was really nice of him to do. It didn't give me a clue as to IB's future plans, but at least now I know people's names. I guess someone at IB decided it would be important to me.

Do you suppose Microsoft ever introduced the development team behind Windows ME?

[Peggy]

LOL he did that because people were yelling for him to do so. ;)

[protoss]

I used to stop to fill up with gasoline at a station right on my way to and from work. The owner's wife couldn't even say thank you when I would pay her, so I decided it was time to take my dollars and shop elsewhere. I now drive by that station to get to another that is generally selling gas for a higher price. But the employees there realize who is paying their wage and they show their appreciation for it.

I'm not going to do business with someone just because I have in the past. If I feel something is lacking in the merchant/consumer relationship, I am perfectly willing to look elsewhere. As Peggy and I have discussed in private, I am playing around with a couple of the free forum solutions and I have also been checking out the demo of a paid solution's very recent major release. There are options available to us. And if I am exchanging my dollars for someone's product and services, then I will purchase the products and services I want. Not those that a company wants to force on me. Maybe it will cost me a nickel more, but if I can get what I want then it is money well-spent.

I've seen vB license holders being placated because Ray posted the names of the vB team on the .com forums. Gee, that was really nice of him to do. It didn't give me a clue as to IB's future plans, but at least now I know people's names. I guess someone at IB decided it would be important to me.

Do you suppose Microsoft ever introduced the development team behind Windows ME?

Nail on the head Mike. Very well said. My thoughts exactly and I've also been looking at alternatives.
The IB (Jelsoft) attitude all the way through the 3.8 series is a disgrace.

[Mike54]

LOL he did that because people were yelling for him to do so.

Possibly so. Have people not been up in arms for IB to explain the new licensing policies?

All I want from IB is an explanation of what changes they plan to institute. I may not like what they have to say, but at least I would know what my own options are. And the 'we haven't finalized any details' dog ain't gonna hunt.

[Peggy]

Yeah I want that too. I think it's really ridiculous that they haven't released even a proposed licensing and/or pricing roadmap.

[JWL]

I think, to play the devils advocate here, one might consider the revenue flow some sites are making off the back of VB. So you pay a little extra per year or for the upgrade, what is that really in the whole process of revenue it brings to your site?
/Devils Advocate off

This is the mentality of some business pricing structure.

I have yet to make a dime, I have invested a tad bit into my VB site, Custom Theme, Classified, VB itself and Blog not to mention the hours of labor. My goal is to have it pay for itself and then some. I have other sites using GNU software, I purposely choose the Software to make an upgrade/migration easier to VB, but that wont happen now.

I am upset about this, I have no real income, I have been trying to build multiple streams of income aka websites for various projects. But I can tell you, I wont pay a dime more for VB4 I will stick with what I have.

It pisses me off to know end, this is becoming the norm for Business practice. Here VBClassifieds just vanishes in thin air for months, abandoning his customers. Then suddenly reappears for a split second and shuts the site down for a few days, then comes back with an excuse but nothing tangible to keep his clients. Now VB is acting like photopost, pretty much screw you :p:mad:

What ever happened to customer service

[JWL]

Do you think, that the leak was leaked in order for JelSoft to get a temp on the community and its reaction?

Being the conspiracy injector I am :D and the paranoid side of me says:

It was leaked on purpose


Ok back to Elvis living with aliens in Area 51 and how Janis Joplin is playing the Stardust hotel on Planet Zimzogg

[Peggy]

LOL, good one.

[Mike54]

Ok back to Elvis living with aliens in Area 51 and how Janis Joplin is playing the Stardust hotel on Planet Zimzogg
But which of those two was the shooter on the grassy knoll? ;)

Or are you smart enough to see through my trick question? Because we all know it was O.J. on the grassy knoll.

I do hope Dave is reading this, as this post contains more vB 4 information than can be found over at .com. :rofl:

[Peggy]

LOL - yer bad... :giggle:

[Dave A]

:peek:

Something happening at vB.com?

Oh....

:hide2:

[Peggy]

lol...

[Dave A]

I need a snooze smilie...