How to SEO VBulletin?

How to SEO VBulletin? Why should we have to discuss this when surely VBulletin should have thought of how to SEO VBulletin and saved us all the trouble?

Well done Joey on creating a forum specifically on VBulletin webmastering. Interesting, when you create a specific website for an issue, you get far more people through it than having seo threads in a non topic related field.

I find it fascinating Joey, that you have not (in my definition) properly SEO'ed this forum. You have seen my thread on "Search Engine Optimize VBulletin", you invited me here, but have not followed many if any of the recommendations.

I would really love some discussion of why you don't consider the following to be good advice:

Have the css in its own file (your CSS is on each page) - reduces page size, faster downloads of each page, makes the content of the page more relevant for Google, since by deleting the css, the content is higher, ...
Do you continue to use 302 redirects for site navigation? (search for 302 redirects on Google and you will find a wealth of discussion about problems they cause). A simple tweak in the php code of VBulletin, and you have 301 redirects. See my thread for details.
You continue to use the archive copy of the threads, rather than redirecting to the proper full thread version. This means that the threads do not get the PR they deserve, therefore they do not show as well as they should on Google. The main reason the archive pages show so high, is that they have better PR - you can SEO the thread pages so they can have almost as good onpage SEO, and people like them better so stay longer on the website.
When you have a multi page thread, the first page has both t=x and t=x&page=1&pp=20, as the url - ie you have two url's for one page. The same would be true if you had a multi page forum.
Multi page threads also have the same title, meta description, and first words on each page. I have used page 2, page 3, ... in each of the title, meta description, and firstwords of the page to try and break out of the duplicate content issue, and try and get the first page of each thread ranked top rather than inner pages.
At the bottom of every thread, you have the standard prev thread, next thread - this gives yet another url for each thread ie ?t=55&goto=nextoldest becomes yet another url for t=34.
You have your meta description and meta keywords twice on every page. You have nicely customised your meta description and keywords - something that definately need to be done, but deleting the old ones is a good idea.
You encourage rel='no follow' on sig and other links - but surely that is in part the payment for people bothering to post on forums. The more we encourage posts, the more people through, the more popularity, the more people linking in.
...There are a wealth of VB SEO hacks on my Search Engine Optimize VBulletin (http://forum.time2dine.co.nz/showthread.php?t=98) thread on my Time2Dine forum. No, the forum name is not quite as sexy as vbwebmaster, but it has got each of the threads (not archive versions) to the top of Google for their search phrase. That has go to say something. In addition, the forum does not receive any DP Co-op links in to it, it ranks on its own right and helps out other sites with the DP links.

Get as much Google PR as you can

PR is not important, as long as you have PR4 or more

Hmmm. In my opinion, you can never get enough PR when you have a forum. I have a PR5 on one forum, with Pr4 on each of my archive pages that have 100 links each going to my actual threads - this would make each thread a PR3 approx. This is enough to get most threads to the top of Google for their search term, in conjunction with the onpage and onsite seo. Without the PR going through to those pages, the threads would certainly not rank so high.

With more threads in your forum, you need more PR otherwise it gets spread too thin around your forum. PR5 homepage drives say 50 archive pages (PR4) that each have 100 links to actual threads giving them PR3 - thats 5000 threads at PR3. If you have 50000 threads, you need to add another layer of site map/archive into the equation, so you need to have a PR6 for the same effect.

The higher the PR, the more often your pages get spidered. The less clicks through to the threads, the more often the threads get spidered.

You can't DP Co-op each and every thread on your forum, therefore if you want to rank high for each thread you have to actually do the onpage SEO and onsite SEO correct for each one.

Sandbox - not a nice place to be in

The sandbox is not an enjoyable place to be in. I have SEO'ed several new websites lately where they have ranked well for their business name and little else, especially in search terms with lots of competition. I seo a page on my main old website for the same search term and get top. I seo for the same search phrase on my new website, and I get nowhere, even though the seo and PR may be better for that page. Now I have been careful to have not too many links between the websites, so easy to fall for that one - Google one site' penalty.

So what do you think of the SEO hacks I have used on my forum? Try them out on yours, and see the difference it can make.

You continue to use the archive copy of the threads, rather than redirecting to the proper full thread version. This means that the threads do not get the PR they deserve, therefore they do not show as well as they should on Google. The main reason the archive pages show so high, is that they have better PR - you can SEO the thread pages so they can have almost as good onpage SEO, and people like them better so stay longer on the website.



how do I desable the archive?

how do I desable the archive?

I recommend that you keep the archive. It follows Googles instructions to have a site map showing the pages on your site. The only issue is that the archive should link to the actual threads of your forum, not yet another version of each thread.

Joey - still no reply to this thread...

Im sorry im not replying much right now- I have a grandmother in the hospital and Im dedicating my time there.

You dont need to do a redirect on the archive, instead use the Easy Archive Hack. This hack will give you just as strong PR for pages in google, and it will also give you twice the chance to get pages spidered and in many cases google will leave both copies of the thread indexed and will thus give you more pages.

I dont use the rel: nofollow on theis forum because I want our PR to pass to our members. I recommend it though because most forums dont need to pass the PR on to image hosting sites like cardomain or other sites. This forum is a little different.

I'll get to more later.

Im sorry im not replying much right now- I have a grandmother in the hospital and Im dedicating my time there.

All the best for your Grandmother


You dont need to do a redirect on the archive, instead use the Easy Archive Hack. This hack will give you just as strong PR for pages in google, and it will also give you twice the chance to get pages spidered and in many cases google will leave both copies of the thread indexed and will thus give you more pages.

Interesting stuff.

My opinions:


I don't need double the number of pages - double the number means there is PR wasted that could be going to the threads that need it. I already have the max number that the Digitalpoint co-op gives credit for.
People are simple - many have not come across vbulletin before, and can think that the archive page they see is the real page - the archive pages look rather dull. You have done very well with getting a fab look and feel to your website, yet you are trying to get people to see your archive pages as the first view of your site - first impressions count, you have only how many seconds to make that first impression, and that is of the archive...
Google recommends site maps - and the archive can be an excellant site map. There is no other site map for VBulletin for the threads.
I link to the main pages of my site map on every page of my site - therefore I get the max PR to the site map, therefore the max PR to each thread, therefore get the threads spidered regularly...
The archive versions are ranked higher for most forums, merely because they are better seo'ed and have more PR. But if you seo the threads better, and give them better PR, they can rank very well in their own right.
People are more inclined to link to the actual thread (IMO), therefore you are competing within your forum as to which version of the thread to show on Google.
I liked your comment (on another thread), that you should link to the archive version from the actual thread. In general this is fab advice since it gives link text value and PR etc to that archive page. However, it would not be needed if you didn't have the archive version, it the archive itself linked back to the actual thread (without having its own copy)
I have activated the "Similar threads" functionality on my forums - this is an excellent way of getting even more link text value for each thread - most threads will get another 5 links through to them - extra PR and link text value. However, in the archive version there is no similar threads type system, therefore you miss out on the benefit for getting the archive version higher.
Each thread often gets great PR and link text value from being mentioned in prime spots around the forum - ie last post, members most recent posts, being listed on the first page of the forum when they have just received posts... Therefore the threads are in direct competition to the archive version for getting shown for the search term.
....
To reiterate, I would rather have one url per thread and one version, and pile as much PR and link text value into that thread as possible through the mechanics of the vbulletin forum. That thread then needs to be SEO'ed as best as possible so that despite all the overload on each thread compared to the archive version, it still has as good a chance as possible of ranking well.

I look forward to your reply.

All the best for your Grandmother




Thank you very much.



I don't need double the number of pages - double the number means there is PR wasted that could be going to the threads that need it. I already have the max number that the Digitalpoint co-op gives credit for.


First, you place too much empasis on PR. But that point aside, having an archive gives google an easer place to spider. Also having that second archive page means google is more likely to find it and spider it. I get a good amount of traffic via my archive, and I also get a good heathy stream from adsense on my archive.

Also - On my archive, the pages have the same or MORE pr then the original page.



People are simple - many have not come across vbulletin before, and can think that the archive page they see is the real page - the archive pages look rather dull. You have done very well with getting a fab look and feel to your website, yet you are trying to get people to see your archive pages as the first view of your site - first impressions count, you have only how many seconds to make that first impression, and that is of the archive...


They dont have to look dull. Using the archive hack they are easily modifiable to be more interesting.



Google recommends site maps - and the archive can be an excellant site map. There is no other site map for VBulletin for the threads.


I have been looking for this and recently requested a hack be made building one.



I link to the main pages of my site map on every page of my site - therefore I get the max PR to the site map, therefore the max PR to each thread, therefore get the threads spidered regularly...


Again, I dont think PR is worth as much as you think. Its a starting point only.



The archive versions are ranked higher for most forums, merely because they are better seo'ed and have more PR. But if you seo the threads better, and give them better PR, they can rank very well in their own right.


I rank very highly for various search terms, many difficult, but rarely



People are more inclined to link to the actual thread (IMO), therefore you are competing within your forum as to which version of the thread to show on Google.


I wold rather compete against myself because one way or the other - I win.



I liked your comment (on another thread), that you should link to the archive version from the actual thread. In general this is fab advice since it gives link text value and PR etc to that archive page. However, it would not be needed if you didn't have the archive version, it the archive itself linked back to the actual thread (without having its own copy)


Again, the archive version gives me another chance for google to find and spider my pages. Google doesnt find every page on a forum. Especially busier forums. Give google every opportunity to find your pages and index them.



I have activated the "Similar threads" functionality on my forums - this is an excellent way of getting even more link text value for each thread - most threads will get another 5 links through to them - extra PR and link text value. However, in the archive version there is no similar threads type system, therefore you miss out on the benefit for getting the archive version higher.


I have the similar threads on my main forum. I havent activated it here just yet. Some things I havent done because I am waiting for the next PR update to make some changes.



More later. I need to go.

I stand by my opinions. But at least the discussion is out there, then people can make up their own minds.

T2DMan, good points you have raised. The only thing I disagree with here, is that you are discussing PageRank. PageRank has nothing to do with rankings, or optimization, so it shouldn't even be discussed here, as it has no relevance to the conversation.

I must say that your SEO points are more than reasonable though, as forum SEO to that extent, and further, has been around for some time now, especially phpbb boards. To not SEO a forum nowadays is suicide IMO, though saying that, it doesn't necessarily have to be done right away either.

I must say to Joeychgo, nice place here, but T2DMan is right about the duplicate URL's. PageRank, duplicate content and so forth is all irrelevant, as the duplicate content filter will simply wipe out the less important, being the one's with the less backlinks / strength of backlinks pointing to them. Yes, they will still be indexed, but not viewable unless you click on the "show disregarded sites" at the bottom of the SERP's.

I to am at fault for not yet SEO'ing my own VB forum, but I don't really care as much as this site, where it's basis is the forum and nothing much else. I would possibly get this place SEO'ed ASAP.

SEO'ing a forum is no so much to appease search engines, its more so you don't **** them off by feeding them surplus rubbish. That's when they take offence and take action in most cases. The less you make a site look like a forum, ie. usernames clicking through to user profiles, member maps of useless profiles and so forth, the better your site will perform, as you are basically attempting to tell the spiders your forum is not a forum as such, and more a normal everyday site. That is the aim of SEO'ing a forum. When you achieve that, then all your outgoing links are then weighted higher, as the SE's are not looking at you as a forum, but a website.

Do you need to use rel="nofollow"? No IMO. A good admin and moderator team will keep the board links clean and remove any spam daily. The ease of banning users and IP's is easy enough to not warrant the use of such rubbish tags. Reward your members for being active, not punish them. Lets face it, a link is reward when your talking net...

you are discussing PageRank. PageRank has nothing to do with rankings, or optimization, so it shouldn't even be discussed here, as it has no relevance to the conversation.
Balderdash! See my reply to your posts in your other thread.

SEO'ing a forum is no so much to appease search engines, its more so you don't **** them off by feeding them surplus rubbish. That's when they take offence and take action in most cases. The less you make a site look like a forum, ie. usernames clicking through to user profiles, member maps of useless profiles and so forth, the better your site will perform, as you are basically attempting to tell the spiders your forum is not a forum as such, and more a normal everyday site. That is the aim of SEO'ing a forum. When you achieve that, then all your outgoing links are then weighted higher, as the SE's are not looking at you as a forum, but a website.

Anthony, where is this stuff coming from? No, the aim of SEOing a forum is NOT to make it look like it's not a forum. It's to make the forum easier to spider and index.

And I do hope your reference to "outgoing links" isn't implying that you believe the nonsense about reciprocal links being penalized...

Forum owners: I strongly recommend that you go back and read T2DMan's posts cover to cover and follow the advice therein.

Anthony, where is this stuff coming from? No, the aim of SEOing a forum is NOT to make it look like it's not a forum. It's to make the forum easier to spider and index.

And I do hope your reference to "outgoing links" isn't implying that you believe the nonsense about reciprocal links being penalized...

Forum owners: I strongly recommend that you go back and read T2DMan's posts cover to cover and follow the advice therein.

This stuff is no secret David. Do you actually perform SEO full time, or just report on it? The outgoing links has no reference to the reciprocal nonsense. Not sure where you got that from. The advice T2DMan has given is excellent, never did knock it, I actually believe I said, follow it. The point I disagreed with was the mention of PageRank in optimization. It has nothing to do with one another. If this is the extent of your knowledge and beliefs David, then maybe you need to perform more SEO, or get active at SEW with those theories, so they can thrown out. Pagerank has squat to do with rankings. If that's the extent of your SEO knowledge, then I'm glad my clients aren't paying you thousands to market their sites, as they would have great pagerank, but little else.

Pagerank has squat to do with rankings.


I agree with you completely on this point Anthony.

However - where we do disagree is in the use of the archive. I use an archive hack here: http://www.vbwebmaster.com/forums/vbulletinforumhistory/. It is spidered easier then the stock vb archive and is easier to customize.

I like it because Google likes it and spiders it often. It helps google find the main pages while adding the pages being indexed, and every page indexed is another page in the serps somewhere and one more chance for someone to find my site.

Because forums, especially busy ones, generate so many pages a day, the archive helps because its a second chance for google to spider and index the page.

I can also tell you that on my other forums, the archive is a revenue center. Adsense ads bring in some nice money. On one forum they account for approximately 8% of adsense revenue and have a CTR 2-3 times higher then the average of the site. And only about 5% of the pageviews come from the archive.

That's not bad at all Joey, not bad at all. Yer, as said earlier, I haven't even bothered with mine at present, though it runs the static archive also, which I activated from the ACP. It does most of the work from my stats, though that's part and parcel I think because the actual forum isn't SEO'ed. This comes back to my original statement, that forum pages, that actually don't look like a forum, do better. So you may just be onto something there, in that your better to leave the static archive run uniquely. I see your point that you can adjust that as a seperate template also, and include Adsense within, though not have it within your main forum. I must say that is a good idea. I might just leave mine the way it is???

What David said about it being nonsense is just so far from the truth nowadays, especially with many SE's clearly outlining their algorithm can pick a forum a mile away, thus automatically devalueing signature links and so forth. One of my VB forums is only new, been up about three months I think, and I am seeing better results from the archived pages, than the forum itself.

Uuuummmm.... I guess you just can't argue with this:

http://www.vbwebmaster.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-272.html

vs.

http://www.vbwebmaster.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3106

Thanks Joey, you made me see the light on that issue, and I just might leave mine as is...

Actually - you looked at the stock VBulletin Archive.

Here is a good example of the difference. The Easy Archive Hack has in fact been indexed while the Stock VBulletin Archive page has not.

VBulletin Stock Archive: How To SEO VBulletin (http://www.vbwebmaster.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-272.html)

Archive Hack Version: How To SEO VBulletin (http://www.vbwebmaster.com/forums/vbulletinforumhistory/topic.php/272-1.html)


Thats why I push the hack. I have watched many times and google crawls the archive hack deeper and more often.

You can get the hack here Anthony - Easy Archive Hack (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65703)


-

Ooohhhh..... that's even cleaner from an SEO view! I might just get me that one I think. Thanks.

Ooohhhh..... that's even cleaner from an SEO view! I might just get me that one I think. Thanks.


Exactly. I have watched for almost a year now - and I can tell you - the first time google gets ahold of that archive hack -- it'll deep crawl. You'll be amazed.

Yahoo crawled mine the exact second I put the link up. Google took 24 hours and stayed 3 days or more.

Yahoo crawled mine the exact second I put the link up. Google took 24 hours and stayed 3 days or more.

Exactly what im referring to. Same thing happened to me on the first forum I put it on.

Unbelievable discussion. Great to hear good support for the basic ideas of my SEO VBulletin hacks, but I am flabbergasted about the talk relating to the archive, and Page rank. Thanks for your support Minstrel, especially regarding Page Rank.

Joey


you like the archive so much, but you have not seo'ed the title, nor meta description - why not make the most of it?
the new archive version does look heaps better
The reason for the archive version being spidered heaps faster is the exact same reason that the actual threads could be spidered faster - if there was a link to the actual threads rather than the archive they would have the same great PR as the archive version and they would be far more accessable.
I have seen you publicise that you want to help other forum owners with their forum SEO - Your forum is a fantastic example of how good discussion and great graphics, and good newsletters can drive traffic, but SEO???
Anthony

Thanks for your support regarding the spirit of my SEO VBulletin hacks
You don't like mention of PR, but you say

the duplicate content filter will simply wipe out the less important being the one's with the less backlinks / strength of backlinks pointing to them

What is "strength of backlink" if it is not Google PR
How can you get backlinks into pages within a forum if the only site map points to a thread copy and not the actual thread, and the thread copy has very few links to other parts of the site because they have all been stripped out.
Threads on the other hand could have great accessability via the archive site map if hacked to go directly to the thread
The Threads then can have the similar thread links that are themed.
Links exist from members lastposts, forum front pages,... The archive versions have none of these and so have "less backlinks/strength of backlinks pointing to them."
If there is a measure based on backlinks and their strength, and my hacks increase these, then surely that is a benefit
If the "simple wipe out" value is added to the REAL threads that you want to rank well, then surely it is of benefit to get rid of duplication.
Thinking about PR is a great way of focussing attention on getting the shortest possible route and the most routes to particular pages. Google is far better at spidering short routes.
If access to the threads is by long routes, then the short route archives are certainly going to be spidered quicker and easier by Google. Give shorter routes to the actual threads and they can get spidered just as easily.
With low PR, your pages get spidered less frequently.

I have seen a site with one PR8 link in, drive many poorly onpage SEO'ed pages to very high on Google
The formula seems very clear - more PR, less relevance needed on the page to rank well; more relevance on the page, less PR needed to rank well. Relevance measured by title, meta description, ... Then text link value of backlinks are factored in, ... but the basic idea still is a great way of getting good ranking. When there is heaps of competition, the backlinks and their PR get so great a part of the formula that the value of onpage optimisation gets rather small (I still see it as an essential foundation).
If have seen many instances where one page will get an instant boost on Google solely because it has a link from the high PR home page of a site. My competition often beats me on certain terms when they link to one of their inner pages from their index page. When there is a post on the main VBulletin.com site to their SEO VBulletin thread, that thread often beats my main Search Engine optimize vbulletin thread. Solely because of PR for that moment.
When you have a multipage thread that gets a lastpost link from the index page, it can often outrank the first page of that thread - so I have to devalue that link by degrading the onpage optimization (adding "page x" in the title/meta description etc.) The last page could only be able to rank higher because PR is a commodity valued by Google.
I am fascinated by the block theory - makes lots of sense and supports how I seo sites - my "Firstwords" theory - have a paragraph including the targetted phrase as high as possible on the page, and you can rank well for that page almost irrespective of the rest of the text that you have on the page. Google seems really good at disregarding the menus/links/navigation structure and focussing on the actual text for its snippet (if it is not using the meta description).
I totally disagree that "Google can pick a forum" and so devalues it. Google doesn't pick out forums to devalue, it picks out badly seo'ed websites and devalues them because they have low value coming to each of their pages. Google thinks poorly of a majority of online shops because they have the same bad seo. But when they get good seo Google loves them.
Google can hate forums for harder to analyse reasons - like if you have the equivalent of sitewide links via a person having many posts/signatures, Google could well devalue the links, could create a samesite situation where it shows the forum for a search result and not show the site in the signature. This is why with one of the forums I post at, I sig link to a thread in that same forum that I have specifically onpage seo'ed to rank for my search terms. That thread is ranking okay for my competitive search term, but not as well as it should if the forum had been properly seo'ed per my seo vb hacks. Despite that, I am getting good PR (and LSI if that is happening), a rather powerful link in to my site - one powerful link rather than multiple sig links that could cause potential problems.
It is all an interesting discussion. The controversy means that it's that much harder to get VBulletin to take on the hacks as part of the package. I believe that you have to get everything right to be successful, and even more things right when you have competition that is also trying hard.

"All quality SEO's will start at the code and work their way through to the final analysis stage. "

"We can spend US$4,000+ solely upon directory links for your site, let alone all the copywriting, code correction, navigation streamlining and so forth. That's what it takes to get long term high rankings, improved conversions and ensure a return on your investment."

"For non-competitive keyword phrases, quality copywriting techniques will generally suffice to achieve high rankings without utilising other search engine optimisation techniques"


My SEO VBulletin hacks cover each of the above areas.

Hmmm. Why get directory links if PR is not important? There must be some importance. And I would rather get a high PR directory link, than a low PR link.

Unbelievable discussion. Great to hear good support for the basic ideas of my SEO VBulletin hacks, but I am flabbergasted about the talk relating to the archive, and Page rank. Thanks for your support Minstrel, especially regarding Page Rank.

Joey

you like the archive so much, but you have not seo'ed the title, nor meta description - why not make the most of it?
the new archive version does look heaps better
The reason for the archive version being spidered heaps faster is the exact same reason that the actual threads could be spidered faster - if there was a link to the actual threads rather than the archive they would have the same great PR as the archive version and they would be far more accessable.


Your right - I havent got to the title and meta descriptions on the archive. It didnt come with those and im a terrible coder. Its one of those things that got pushed to the back burner, and basically I forgot.

You forget - or maybe didnt notice - every archive thread contains a link to the original. SO the original gets spidered at some point as well via that back door.

Its been said a hundred times. PR is, at best, a small part of the SERPS equasion. One of my pr 5 sites routinely surpasses a PR7 site for a major keyword. Yet there is a PR 3 site that always keeps the top spot for another keyword right above my PR 5.

www . time 2 dine . co .nz is a little more than PR3 - ranks in the top ten in the world for "restaurants guide" and top 12 for "restaurant guide"

forum. time2dine. co . nz is also a little more than PR3

reviews . time2dine. com. au is a little newer and yes, that is a PR3 on the root url. But most of the Pr comes in to one of the inner pages - Sydney Restaurants. With the next update, it should be PR4 or Pr5 on the main index page. Have a look at the backlinks for the sydney restaurants page - it has quite a few links and not only from the co-op. Some very powerful homepage PR5+'s coming in to it.

All the sites have virtually every page as top of Google for their search terms. The Aussy site is not considered an authority site by Google yet - needs a few more months for Google to decide it likes it, but hundreds of threads are in the top ten on Google for their search terms.

I got in the top ten for the Nigritude Ultramarine competition and got a PR6 for that page during the competition.

I am following what Anthony has on his site - per my quote - when you do all the steps he has mentioned, sites do well.

Dead on, T2DMan.

I don't get to this forum as often as I should and my primary email server (Sympatico) was down most of the week. I won't try this morning to refute all of the things Anthiny Parsons has said in the two threads here, partly because, as T2DMan notes, there are a lot of contradictions in what he says and some of it is just plain gobbledygook.

Let me just leave it at this: While I have never claimed that PR is all there is to Google ranking, anyone who believes that it has vanished from the algorithm is living in a fantasy world. This may be a good strategy for calming your SEO customers (yes you only have PR1 but dodn't worry about it because PR doesn't mean anything any more) but in the real world of Google it is nonsense.

IN my opinion PR probably has something to do with the serps - it doesnt carry the importance that it used to and is just one factor in the equasion these days.

The only evidence I have about that is that you dont usualy see PR1 sites at the top of the serps. But I dont see the top PR pages at the top of the serps all the time either.

So I think its still involved, but not much.

Joey, Google has always said that PAgeRank is only "one of more than 100 factors" determining ranking.

This isn't anything new and it does not mean that PR has been devalued.

Because of this, and depending on the search terms, lower PR pages have always had the cabability to outrank higher PR pages in the SERPs. Again, this is not new and does not mean that Google is devaluing PR.

Agreed. But many people think PR is the end all be all. WHich is completely false.

You are right Joey, and I also get peeved when people ask me for links and they have not onpage SEO'ed their page for what they are trying to sell, and the link text is 5 words and what they are selling is two words.

SEO should be wholistic - onpage, onsite, whole of web, optimizing for customer experience - very focussed to get each part right.

I hark back to the words I quoted from Anthony. It takes time, but it is worth it. There is so much thinking involved.

But many people think PR is the end all be all. WHich is completely false.
Agreed. But some, like Anthony Parsons, seem to think (or at least that's what he stated) that it has no value at all. Which is completely false.

Prove to me that PR has anything to do with ranking? Then, go and have a look at what IR scientist, who know a hell of alot more about it than you and me Dave, have to say about their evaluations recently. They, EXPERTS IN MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS AND ALGORITHMS, seem to now believe that it is no more. Go figure. You only need to get away from WPW and get to a real forum such as SEW to learn on those matters. That is where the experts are.

Anthony Parsons, I have no interest in proving anything to you. Believe what you wish, although if you truly believe what you have said here I wonder how happy your clients are going to be over the long haul.

And if you believe that the "experts" are all on "a real forum such as SEW", I am puzzled as to why you would be wasting your time here at all. As for WPW, you may have noticed that I make infrequent appearances there these days but in any case I don't know what WPW has to do with this forum or anything being discussed here.

Boy oh Boy - arent we a spirited bunch.

I came here as it was shown to me as a topic of interest for VB owners, me being such one. I saw the SEO and had to provide the correct, accurate and most up to date advice to those here, instead of advice that was pre 2004.

Thanks TD. I submit sites to all directories, regardless of PR, as it is the categorized link amongst the relevant content that is important. The Pagerank of the homepage has nothing to do with the page your linked upon, so that would rule just about every directory out, with the exception of Yahoo, DMOZ and Google directory results. The importance of submitting to directories is:

#1 - You have many different IP's pointing to your site.
#2 - The relevant content onpage factors
#3 - You may pickup some relevant traffic through the SERP's as bonus traffic, as many directory pages rank highly for related queries.
#4 - many others...

You can't just live on directory submission though, which is where you could simply track down relevant like content and themed links yourself, or simply do as I do, as go to an expert in linking and let them do the work for me (not a link broker either), an actual link expert that can get you quality, one time payment, homepage, sitewide, specific themed pages and so forth. Someone who lives and breathes linking, such as Jim Boykin or Patrick Gavin.

The reference to WPW is because it suxs, the moderators cannot even agree as most of them are stilling working off past knowledge, not current, as many don't even perform SEO, just read what others have to say and continually reguritate it to others. No different from many of the high profile forums actually, with the exception of some of the moderators at them, most are more SEO Journalists than actual practising SEO's. Hell, I've just retired from everything, and still know what is happening at the front line. I have said it before, and will say it again, I think most of the self appointed head figures that boast within this industry, are stale and need to step aside to the more mathematical, energetic youth and let them do what comes naturally to them.

You're confusing energy and speculation with wisdom and fact, AP.

Your probably true, I do that every now and then to see what rises.

I submit sites to all directories, regardless of PR, as it is the categorized link amongst the relevant content that is important. The Pagerank of the homepage has nothing to do with the page your linked upon, so that would rule just about every directory out, with the exception of Yahoo, DMOZ and Google directory results. The importance of submitting to directories is:

#1 - You have many different IP's pointing to your site.
#2 - The relevant content onpage factors
#3 - You may pickup some relevant traffic through the SERP's as bonus traffic, as many directory pages rank highly for related queries.
#4 - many others...

You can't just live on directory submission though, which is where you could simply track down relevant like content and themed links yourself, or simply do as I do, as go to an expert in linking and let them do the work for me (not a link broker either), an actual link expert that can get you quality, one time payment, homepage, sitewide, specific themed pages and so forth. Someone who lives and breathes linking, such as Jim Boykin or Patrick Gavin.

I agree with this completely and do the same myself.