vBa Gallery sold to PhotoPost. Users await support and code. [Archive]

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 05:37 PM

By Brian at vBAdvanced

What does this mean for vBadvanced?
We would like to assure our customers that this change only pertains to vBadvanced Gallery and does not affect our company as a whole, or any of our other products. We will continue about our business here as normal, and if anything, this will give us more time to concentrate on our existing CMPS and Links Directory products, plus give us more time to create new products.

So, we should be ok. Ive never been impressed with Photopost or vBGallery - Im quite happy with what youve accomplished with vB Picgallery Noppid. You should be quite proud of it.

By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)
We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

So it seems the pricing will go up before long, and probably double.

What struck me is the arrogance and defensiveness displayed by ScottW23 in that thread. Maybe im taking it a bit critical, and it is just my opinion, but what im reading is not good for photopost's image IMO.

The other interesting thing is that all these threads are being closed. Apparantly, vB owners arent suppose to discuss this openly. Well, feel free to discuss it here folks! I wont be closing this thread.

Noppid

11-20-2005, 06:22 PM

By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)
We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

The current PhotoPost pricing model requires a $39.00 Renew Members Area Access fee every year as well.

vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) is currently available for a $20.00 one time donation. If you used to use vBGarage for vBulletin 3.0.x, you can upgrade to vBPicGallery on vBulletin 3.5.x!

420

11-20-2005, 06:23 PM

i own 3 vba galleries and 2 pp galleries..
i am very curious to see what will happen...
most say they will remain separate...
i disagree..
i think both of them should be merged to make one super vb gallery...
am i the only one that feels this way?
:wave:

Mayers

11-20-2005, 06:28 PM

I really find this ownership change upsetting. I used both PhotoPost in the past and I must say it wasn't very happy with it. I was looking into vBa Gallery but now that it's under this new ownership I'm going to look into other options. I was looking at vBPicGallery a while ago, but it wasn't released yet, but now that it is I think i'm going to go for that gallery. I truely think vBPicGallery is going to become large because of this, just from looking at current vBa Gallery users, they aren't very happy about the change.

Maybe vBPicGallery could make a converter from the lastest version of vBa Gallery (before the ownership changes) to vBPicGallery if there isn't one already.

Now I think as a stand alone, PhotoPost is good, but when it comes to intergration I personally thought it was poor.

Edit: Added something.

dchapman

11-20-2005, 06:47 PM

I have worked with Brian of vBadvanced in the past. He is extremely professional, hardworking, and quite possibly the best vBulletin hacker out there. I have no doubt that his decision did not come easily and that he had his customers in mind when making the final decision. His incredible level of support has showcased just how much he cares about his customers and their satisfaction. Let's hope PhotoPost can support the product as well as he did. Otherwise i'll be looking forward to additions to Noppid's script.

Noppid

11-20-2005, 07:22 PM

Thank you both for the kind words about vBPicGallery, we appreciate it!

As soon as I get the table structure of vBadvanced gallery, I will be creating a converter to vBPicGallery. This should happen pretty quickly.

If anyone has suggestions for the converter or vBPicGallery, please let us hear them.

Thank you.

420

11-20-2005, 07:29 PM

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 07:44 PM

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:

I can fully understand that some of our customers are upset, and I can understand the reasons for this. Our intent was never to market something and sell it to a third party. That has never been our intention, and never will be. Something happened beyond our control in regards to the vbadvanced gallery. I wish I could disclose the details of what transpired, but legally I cannot provide any answer. I am waiting to hear back from my attorney tomorrow, at which point I will see what exactly I am allowed to disclose and I will do my best to fully answer (to my ability) any questions/concerns our customers my have. Again, I deeply apologize for any inconvience this may have caused any of our customers.

What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-

Noppid

11-20-2005, 07:46 PM

while i applaud your efforts, i'm more apt to stick with the people who have had the most research and development completed personally, due to the number of users they have...
i grew with brian, it sucked...
having to find and reports bugs every day, then to wait for a fix...
i am hoping that pp will be more stable on my large volume forums..
users with smaller traffic need not worry about these things as much...

Don't be fooled by the size of www.cpurigs.com. vBPicGallery in on several large forums with good usage of the vBPicGallery occuring. We have not had any issues. Joe will vouch for this.

I'm sure my 5 Years experience with vBulletin, personally and as the admin of about 50 vB sites over the years, and my 22 years as a computer professional rate as qualified to do R&D.

Look at my work on vB.org for free. You will see I fix my code if it breaks in a very timely fashion with an actual means to an end. vBGarage 4.1.0 has required zero updates in a long time to mention one. :)

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 07:47 PM

Yes Noppid jumps right on any issues or bugs

Mayers

11-20-2005, 07:49 PM

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:

What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-
From my understanding, Brian's code was made from scratch, so I couldn't picture anything as far as legal matters goes. It could be personal reasons and he felt a paid products that large should be handed over to someone else. I really don't think we'll truely know the reason behind it.

Noppid

11-20-2005, 07:50 PM

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:

What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-

The fact that this transaction had such a strict Non-Disclosure Agreement attached does not bode well for the future IMO.

420

11-20-2005, 07:51 PM

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 07:55 PM

Noppid is great for support - TRUST ME.

As far as quality - here are my galleries: Pretty good sized, never a problem.

Lincoln vs Cadillac (http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/vbpicgallery.php)

A-Body Mopar (http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/vbgarage.php) (not converted to 3.5 yet)

Mitsubishi Forum (http://www.team-2g.com/mitsubishi-eclipse/vbpicgallery.php)

Noppid

11-20-2005, 07:57 PM

i am still learning about vb and all of it's offspring and i've had nothing but a nightmare on my hands to date...so i am skeptical to start looking into newer ventures...i'll keep an eye on this issue for a while and see what happens...all i want is a gallery that works and works good and when i ask for tech support, i don't get treated like a red headed step child...

Well we'd appreciate being in the back of your mind. There are alot of decisions made running a forum and thinking them through and doing the research is worth the effort.

Visit my support forum for vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) and FREEBS (http://www.cpurigs.com/). That will show you in fact how responsive we are to our software users as well as our ability to respond to code necessities.

Thanks!

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 08:04 PM

The potential legal aspect has me quite interested and curious.

Brian at vBadvanced responded to my query by saying: "The "bolded part" is public record."

What in the world is going on? Im also wondering why everyone seems so concerned about all of us 'speculating' about what has happened and what photopost will or wont do with it.

420

11-20-2005, 08:04 PM

i'm sure you rule bro...not saying you don't...and i am sure you are on top of things...all i'm saying is...let's see what happens once the dust settles...then i'll investigate...right now, i have all my free time used up just reading all the crap about this takeover...lol

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...

brian's already threatend to sue me for telling my horror stories of dealing with him...
i could care less though, sue me...good luck pal.
i'll tell my story to a thousand more people if they ask me..
he should have handled his business much better, in my opinion...

noppid, if you have time for custom work, maybe you can help me out..
webmaster@fourtwenty.com if you do.

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 08:10 PM

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...

Really!!!!!!!!!!????????? Tell us more!

Mayers

11-20-2005, 08:17 PM

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...

wow I never knew about that. I hope nothing happens with the other products.

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 08:27 PM

Its sounding more and more like that is the case. I wonder if Brian LOST the program in some kind of legal action. If true, I know I wont be a photopost customer EVER.

420

11-20-2005, 08:29 PM

Noppid

11-20-2005, 08:29 PM

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...

I have some folks with access to anything that would be disclosed about the case publically called upon to get any such info.

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 08:31 PM

So..........the plot thickens

420

11-20-2005, 08:34 PM

here is his attorney's information, he showed me about 5 times...

Dan R. Gresham
C.O. Thomas, Kayden, Horstemeyer, & Risley LLP
100 Galleria Parkway, NW Suite 1750
Atlanta, GA 30339-5948
http://tkhr.com

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 08:37 PM

Wow, I would be interested to know the whole story on this. Guess im looking for court documents on monday

minstrel

11-20-2005, 08:39 PM

when i ask for tech support, i don't get treated like a red headed step child...
I'm assuming that you're NOT actually a red-headed step-child?

Let me just throw in my personal character reference for noppid. Over the years, one meets a lot of people and a few stand out as actually living principles of integrity and fair play. Noppid is one of those people.

I have nothing to lose or gain by saying this. I don't even own a copy of vBulletin yet, let alone a vB gallery -- until 3.5, there were a number of things I didn't even LIKE about vBulletin. I have no financial stake in any of these products whatsoever. But sometimes it's better to go with the individual rather than the product.

...my 2 cents (5 cents Canadian).

420

11-20-2005, 08:48 PM

well, all i have to say is...

i have 4 vb forums, 3 vba galleries, 2 pp galleries, 2 vba links, 3 vba cmps
portals...
all running vb 3.51 and latest versions of all scripts...

http://www.420times.com
http://www.420girls.com
http://www.fourtwenty.com
http://www.nothingface.com

i have just hired this great man to do my custom work...
we will see what happens..
my full report soon...;)

thanks guys!

Noppid

11-20-2005, 08:58 PM

Thank you for the kind words minstrel. I really appreciate it!

I'm good at what I do and not ashamed to pass on what is not within my capabilities. I appreciate all opportunities.

vbcorolla

11-20-2005, 09:10 PM

Guess im looking for court documents on monday
Exactly what I was thinking :D I can't wait to see this

Ramses

11-20-2005, 09:12 PM

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 09:13 PM

Exactly what I was thinking :D I can't wait to see this

Yeah - this is already getting very interesting. I like VBA - although the gallery never fit my needs - the links program and the cmps program are here on this forum. Im actually kind of irritated that PP may have done just what I fear they did.

minstrel

11-20-2005, 09:17 PM

this is what brian told me on 12/14/2004

Wow... That stuff about PP sucks. I've had my fair share of problems with them in the past from them threatening to sue me because I owned a copy of PP over 2 years ago, so because of that they think I had to have copied their code. I tried talking to them thinking they would be rational, but the things they were saying were completely ridiculous. I finally turned things over to my attorney and haven't heard a thing since. At least I can promise you that your experience with vBa products/support/etc will be nothing like that. :)

excuse my french but...
bull****ing****.
:confused:

I'm not sure what part of this you think is BS, 420.

I don't know the story here and I'm not disputing your understanding of the facts but what you posted looks like this guy Brian was threatened with copyright infringement litigation and backed off, leaving things to the lawyers. Given the subsequent turn of events, it would seem likely that he lost the fight -- OR gave it up and settled out of court.

Or are you suggesting this is just smokescreen and that he sold out for profit, dumping his customers in the process?

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 09:19 PM

No, im thinking he lost in court, due to the abruptness of all this. Photopost is being very evasive about this as well

sarahk

11-20-2005, 09:22 PM

I'm really disappointed by this but that's often the way business goes.

FWIW I just discovered WSN Gallery (http://scripts.webmastersite.net/wsngallery/) which includes vB integration.

Noppid

11-20-2005, 09:28 PM

That furthers my statement that PhotoPost could not leverage the vBulletin Photo Gallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) market buy buying this product out. There is competition.

So it's unlikely to me that Brian took the money and ran. I think it's more likely he did the best he could with whatever opportunities he had.

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 09:29 PM

I think it's more likely he did the best he could with whatever opportunities he had.

That would be my guess.

Noppid

11-20-2005, 09:54 PM

I wonder if the price goes up, will current owners be grandfathered in? Or will they get a coupon and have to pay more to be up to date license wise?

Lizard King

11-20-2005, 09:54 PM

It is obvious that photopost and Brian had some legal problems thats why he cannot tell anything about it.
I never wanted to work with Photopost and i hope i won't be. As long as vba gallery works with vBulletin and will not need an update i will not upgrade it to Photopost vbGallery because i even dont want to give a link back to them from my site.

What i am wondering is we all know Brian as he is a good vb coder and a tursted person , why he had the legal status. The code with vba gallery and photopost is different so how can he loose ? Is it only the interfrance ? If so all paid boards that came after vBulletin must be closed also.

Lizard King

11-20-2005, 09:56 PM

I wonder if the price goes up, will current owners be grandfathered in? Or will they get a coupon and have to pay more to be up to date license wise?

This is something i am also wondering. I had my license until february 2006 and what will happen then. When i purchase vba gallery renewing was 20 or 30 $ i dont remember but i ma sure $ eye photopost people will increase this price which they will not get it from me. But immediately they scripts prices increased.

vbcorolla

11-20-2005, 10:00 PM

But immediately they scripts prices increased.
Glad I'm not the only person that noticed that.
The 'sale price' of every script was raised $20

I'll be waiving the vbadvanced.com copyright notice as long as I can get away with it :D

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 10:01 PM

Well, I would wonder if photopost would be lookng to recoup some legal expenses from current vbgallery owners

vbcorolla

11-20-2005, 10:05 PM

Noppid

11-20-2005, 10:07 PM

heh, who knows. at this point we need some real evidence or this thread will get to the point we're saying Brian needed to fund a rocket mission to the moon in order to place a vba flag next to the USA one.

Has he posted recently?

Whatever the case, I wish him well. He puts out good work.

Joeychgo

11-20-2005, 10:09 PM

heh, who knows. at this point we need some real evidence or this thread will get to the point we're saying Brian needed to fund a rocket mission to the moon in order to place a vba flag next to the USA one.

Kool! Got pics yet? :D

Photopost is being just as secretive about things - the truth will come out......sooner or later

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 02:45 AM

Oh man, this sucks :(
I hope customers that can afford it sue PP
They are terrible... poor Brian... :(

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 02:49 AM

Well, we dont know what transpired yet. I will say, I dont think its good PR for photo post not to be straight forward about all this and let everyone know what the deal is.

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 02:57 AM

ΤΗΕΥ SUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!
I wish Brian can buy the Gallery back... Is there a chance for it? Even 1%?
Let me hope! :(

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 03:01 AM

ΤΗΕΥ SUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!
I wish Brian can buy the Gallery back... Is there a chance for it? Even 1%?
Let me hope! :(

I would say... No. Unfortunately. I doubt PP would give up the script under ANY circumstances.

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 03:39 AM

Well then I hope that company gets bankruptcy and others buy all their scripts :(

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 05:37 AM

you mean photopost?

Brad

11-21-2005, 05:41 AM

you mean photopost?
I'm sure he does. ;)

gruchacz

11-21-2005, 05:56 AM

Tis a sad day for VBAdvanced gallery users....

I just hope this will not resualt in raised prices and not to mention raising the renew subscription...

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 06:02 AM

I'm sure he does. ;)
Of course I mean photopost!!! I like vbadvanced a lot, I would never say something bad about them or Brian! Brian rocks! He has awsome support and wonderful hacks. :)

Oh and btw it's SHE not HE ;) I'm not male!

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 06:04 AM

Tis a sad day for VBAdvanced gallery users....

I just hope this will not resualt in raised prices and not to mention raising the renew subscription...
Of course they will raise their prices, they already did for their older products to leave room for vbGallery's price to raise. :(
These guys suck, they are so money oriented that it makes me sick.

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 06:23 AM

Of course they will raise their prices, they already did for their older products to leave room for vbGallery's price to raise. :(
These guys suck, they are so money oriented that it makes me sick.

Well, I dont fault them for being money orientated, this is a business, and businesses are about money.

However, in the same breath, from what I ahve seen so far, they arent very professional in my opinion. For example:

Yes, though it is 5am now and I have not yet been to bed. I've been up all day Sunday and Monday morning working on this - I'd like a few hours of sleep, please. We will be able to sell, deliver, and support PhotoPost vBGallery by the end of the day, Monday.
(ScottW is the photopost administrator, this was posted on the photopost forum)

Seems to me that had he planned this better, maybe he wouldnt have these problems. But thats just my opinion. (Gotta be careful, I dont wanna get sued :D)
I dont know the full story yet, but so far, it seems like this whole thing has been handled poorly and in a very disorganized fashion. Again, just my opinion.

theMusicMan

11-21-2005, 06:49 AM

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 06:55 AM

Not sure. I am sure photopost will let you know - probably will require you to update the software to include their copyright information.

Loukrhtia

11-21-2005, 07:02 AM

Well, I dont fault them for being money orientated, this is a business, and businesses are about money.

Yes but I didn't get that feeling with vbadvanced! These PP guys are more than they should!

Big Kahuna

11-21-2005, 09:42 AM

What this world needs is some tort reform. Too many people suing too many people -- and those people can't afford to defend themselves. I have two php Photoposts licenses and on php Classified license -- and I can tell you they have threatened legal action for having two copies in the same domain (one was a test sub domain).

Nopid -- sleep with one eye open. Big fish have a tendancy of swallowing small fish. If they think you'll rollover if sued for a "Look & Feel" violation -- they might do it. You might win -- but it might cost you $500,000 to win.

Trust me on this -- I've fought many wrongful suites (I'm $180,000 in legal fees on one right now -- and it is being appealed) and you never get those attorney fees back when you win.

vbcorolla

11-21-2005, 10:31 AM

so how do you do the court records lookup?

also.. it appears photopost is merging databases now.

minstrel

11-21-2005, 10:40 AM

sleep with one eye open
Now you've got me singing that song in my head...

sleep with one eye open
hugging your pillow tight
exit light

KW802

11-21-2005, 07:38 PM

Interesting read indeed...

So... for present owners and users of the vBAdvanced Gallery - how do we stand for removing the Powered by vBAdvanced Gallery phrase text as it is no longer powered by vBA Gallery?John, here's the official answer on that one... (3rd bolded title down)

http://www.photopost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119665

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 08:02 PM

vbcorolla

11-21-2005, 08:59 PM

good work. we have multiple people trying to get documents now that I know of.. although I can't mention the others here

Chris M

11-21-2005, 09:23 PM

Well this definately is interesting to say the least...

Unfortunately if it turns out to be true, Brian must be gutted; Perhaps he can create another Gallery? ;)

Chris

gprime

11-21-2005, 09:27 PM

Ok, well I have more research to do - but here is what I know as of now.

Photopost sued Brian. To settle the lawsuit, Brian had to give them the Gallery script.

Part of the settlement agreement included a gag order on Brian, where he cannot reveal any details of the settlement.

I am still trying to get my hands on the official court documents -

-

Good to know. At first I was upset at Brian because I really wanted to buy vba gallery especially with his great support, but after reading this I feel rather sympathetic. While it is totally within AEI's rights to implement such hostile business strategies, it only serves to further their image as a low quality, underhanded company with poor customer relations and purely financial motivations.

Joeychgo

11-21-2005, 09:37 PM

Good to know. At first I was upset at Brian because I really wanted to buy vba gallery especially with his great support, but after reading this I feel rather sympathetic. While it is totally within AEI's rights to implement such hostile business strategies, it only serves to further their image as a low quality, underhanded company with poor customer relations and purely financial motivations.

My opinions are similar.

Lizard King

11-21-2005, 09:43 PM

Why didn't Brian go to court if he wrote the script from scratch ? This is i am wondering write now.

Chris M

11-21-2005, 09:54 PM

Lizard King

11-21-2005, 10:59 PM

There are several reasons why, and I'm going to point out the most obvious: cost...

Court cases cost money and it would probably have been more cost than it was worth for Brian to contest it...

Chris
I am not sure about the laws in USA but in Turkey if someone sues you with something like this and they loose you can sue them back. I think it is something similar in USA and maybe way better then Turkey.

theMusicMan

11-22-2005, 12:34 AM

John, here's the official answer on that one... (3rd bolded title down)

http://www.photopost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119665Excellent.. thanks Kev... appreciated.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 01:26 AM

I am not sure about the laws in USA but in Turkey if someone sues you with something like this and they loose you can sue them back. I think it is something similar in USA and maybe way better then Turkey.

Nope - unless the case is totally without merit (a rarity), you bear your own costs of defense.

A case like this could have run brian $10k or more to defend at trial. He still could have lost.

Lizard King

11-22-2005, 01:35 AM

Nope - unless the case is totally without merit (a rarity), you bear your own costs of defense.

A case like this could have run brian $10k or more to defend at trial. He still could have lost.
That is nonsense. In Turkey if someone sue's you and loose in the court they have to cover all your court lawyer expenses and in the other hand if you loose you have to cover other parties expenses :) But i believe the system in USA is build just to make lawyers rich. I know how expensive thay are as i dealt with them previously.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 01:44 AM

That is nonsense. In Turkey if someone sue's you and loose in the court they have to cover all your court lawyer expenses and in the other hand if you loose you have to cover other parties expenses :) But i believe the system in USA is build just to make lawyers rich. I know how expensive thay are as i dealt with them previously.

Be that as it may - it s what it is.

gprime

11-22-2005, 06:20 AM

Well, maybe he could have counter-sued for slander and defamation of character to make back his costs.

vbcorolla

11-22-2005, 06:43 AM

the thing I wonder about now is the legality of mods on the new gallery. Under the new License Agreement you agree to some odd things

1. they can use your domain/site name in promotional materials without any notice.
2.
PhotoPost source code may be altered (at the owners risk),
but the software (altered or otherwise) may not be distributed to entities
beyond the license holder without the explicit written permission of All Enthusiast, Inc.
So, do mods count as the software?? who knows.

3. you authorize them to put callhomes in the software itself (photopost already contains one on install)

I'm not sure I want to agree to all that:mad:

theMusicMan

11-22-2005, 07:11 AM

You don't have to... but you then won't be able to download any updated files. If you keep your current version intact as-is, leave well alone and you won't have any call homes. When you download the latest version you effectively agree to their terms, so don't download it.

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 07:22 AM

For folks who don't understand legalese, and I won't go and say PP did this, but Brian does have an outlet, and it's called an anti-SLAPP suit.

SLAPP suits are often brought against entities that a suer knows can't afford the long drawn out course of a lawsuit (this is well known how Church of Scientology goes after it's victims). But since this was filed in CA, that state has better anti-SLAPP protections. Brian can very much counter-sue, especially if he can provide evidence of a HISTORY of such lawsuits with other competitors.

I wish there wasn't a gag order, since we won't know if Brian even got that much legal advice. :(

But either way I signed up to say the above and this: I don't like what happened to Brian, and especially to a modder in the community who made a good extension for vB users. To be treated like this stinks. I hope he persues some legal recourse, because no doubt, he'll be targeted again -- as if he can back out once some greedy company will do it again.

Chris

Ramses

11-22-2005, 08:04 AM

It's looking more and more very bad if this is true.
I only ask, why doesn't Brian talked about this situation before it was coming to late for it?
If he would have talked about it earlier that pp want to get his gallery by a lawsuit maybe it wouldn't be happened as it now happened because there would have been a big protest and assistance from the vba and vb community to help him out of this situation.
Another question for me, if it is as it is looking now, why do some ppl who worked for Brian before do so now for the "devil" ?

vbcorolla

11-22-2005, 08:06 AM

look what I found..

Well, Brian may gagged by his settlement, but I'm guessing it doesn't specificly prevent me from posting public information:

On 7-5-2005 All Enthusiast, Inc. filed suit against Brian Gunter & Plurplanet, Inc. in US District Court - Northern District of California, case number 30502733.

I'll have to wait a couple of days for my PACER password before I can get the actual text of the suit, but when I do I'll be posting it on multiple boards.

If anyone already has PACER access, please feel free to let us know.

Boycott +1

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 08:17 AM

Interestingly, there is a flood of closed threads across a variety of boards, all on this subject. Alot of seemingly upset vBgallery owners floating around.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 08:34 AM

look what I found..

Boycott +1

I could find nothing on pacer....

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 08:34 AM

One thing you'll learn about marketing: for every 1 person who dislikes a product, they'll tell an average of 10 others, who'll tell 10 others and it goes from there. It's why you try so hard to keep the customers you have and keep them happy. A little effort in customer relations can go a long way to make a product/company grow -- skimp there the product/company sinks (as customers aren't going to take lip, especially if they're paying for a product).

Sue a company just out of greed, will often sink the suer -- as it looks ugly and vengeful. At least they could allow Brian to air his feelings or good will, that would've made the transition a lot less rocky.

Now it's about boycotts and "don't buy PP because they did this..."

The PR is rotten -- this isn't open source, folks are paying money for these products and expect service (not watching their mod community targetted).

Chris

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 08:41 AM

Well, maybe he could have counter-sued for slander and defamation of character to make back his costs.

BTW - I have it on good authority that Brian had already spent almost $30,000 in attorneys fees on this case. It still hadnt gone to trial yet.

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 08:49 AM

Hate to say this: that's quite cheap. SLAPP type suits can get in the $$$$$$ to $$$$$$$$ range.

One case I know, the price tag was in the $5,000,000 range with a network carrier.

It's why folks want anti-SLAPP protection (and can ask for it in court, too).

Chris

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 09:08 AM

But this action was in Federal Court, I dont know what slapp protecton they have.

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 09:37 AM

In the case between New.net, Inc v. Lavasoft [Federal Court]...

http://www.casp.net/newnet-1.html

B. THE SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE DOES NOT VIOLATE THE ERIE DOCTRINE

Defendant properly directs its anti-SLAPP motion only to the pendant state law claims set out in the Complaint. Because Erie R.R. Co. v. Tompkins, 304 U.S. 64, 58 S.Ct. 817, 82 L.Ed. 1188 (1938), which was initially formulated in diversity cases, applies as well to pendant state law claims in federal question cases, see Nathan v. Boeing Co., 116 F.3d 422, 423 (9th Cir.1997), the Court must first consider whether to apply this unique state procedure in this action. That determination turns on whether application of the state procedural rule would result in a "direct collision" with a Federal Rule of Civil Procedure. Walker v. Armco Steel Corp., 446 U.S. 740, 749-50, 100 S.Ct. 1978, 64 L.Ed.2d 659 (1980). Where no such collision exists, application of the state rule should be applied to accomplish the "twin aims" of the Erie principle -- the discouragement of forum shopping and the equitable administration of the laws. Hanna v. Plumer, 380 U.S. 460, 468, 85 S.Ct. 1136, 14 L.Ed.2d 8 (1965).

This circuit has addressed the applicability of the anti-SLAPP statute in federal question cases in United States v. Lockheed Missiles & Space Co., Inc., 190 F.3d 963, 970-73 (9th Cir.1999), in which the Court concluded that subsections (b) and (c) of the anti-SLAPP statute may be applied to pendant state law claims without running afoul of Federal Rules 8, 12 and 56. In response to the contention that the anti-SLAPP legislation "directly conflicted" with those rules, the Court concluded:

[T]wo aspects of California's Anti-SLAPP statute are at issue: the special motion to strike, Cal. Civ. P.Code § 425.16(b), and the availability of fees and costs, Cal. Civ. P.Code § 425.16(c). We conclude that these provisions and Rules 8, 12, and 56 'can exist side by side ... each controlling its own intended sphere of coverage without conflict.' Walker v. Armco Steel, 446 U.S. at 752, 100 S.Ct. 1978, 64 L.Ed.2d 659.
Id. at 972. The Court further noted:

Although Rules 12 and 56 allow a litigant to test the opponent's claims before trial, California's "special motion to strike" adds an additional, unique weapon to the pretrial arsenal, a weapon whose sting is enhanced by a[n] entitlement to fees and costs. Plainly, if the anti-SLAPP provisions are held not to apply in federal court, a litigant interested in bringing meritless SLAPP claims would have a significant incentive to shop for a federal forum. Conversely, a litigant otherwise entitled to the protections of the anti-SLAPP statute would find considerable disadvantage in a federal proceeding. This outcome appears to run squarely against the "twin aims" of the Erie doctrine.

Reread what is in bold very closely.

Chris

vbcorolla

11-22-2005, 09:59 AM

the PDF has now been posted on vbulletin.com and text version on theadminzone.com forums

$250,000 in damages supposedly is what Brian was sued for

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 10:03 AM

ADRMOP, E-Filing, MEDIATION

U.S. District Court
California Northern District (San Francisco)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 3:05-cv-02733-WHA

All Enthusiast, Inc. v. Gunter
Assigned to: Hon. William H. Alsup
Case in other court: Napa County Superior Court, 26-29614
Cause: 28:1441 Petition For Removal--Other Contract
Date Filed: 07/05/2005
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 190 Contract: Other
Jurisdiction: Diversity
Plaintiff
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Jamie L. Dupree
Futterman & Dupree LLP
160 Sansome Street
17th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94104
415-399-3840
Fax: 415-399-****
Email: jdupree@*****
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Navid Yadegar
Proskauer Rose LLP
2049 Century Park East,
Suite 3200
Los Angeles, CA 90067-3206
310-557-2900
Fax: 310-557-****
Email: nyadegar@*****
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Plaintiff
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Navid Yadegar
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

V.

Defendant
Brian Gunter represented by Brian M. O'Dea
McNichols Randick O'Dea & Tooliatos
[address removed]
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Cynthia J. Lee
Thomas, Kayden, Horstmeyer & Risley, LLP
[removed]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Dan R. Gresham
Thomas, Kayden, Horstmeyer & Risley, LLP
[removed]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Defendant
Plurplanet, Inc. represented by Brian M. O'Dea
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Cynthia J. Lee
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Dan R. Gresham
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Counter-claimant
Plurplanet, Inc.

Counter-claimant
Brian Gunter

V.

Counter-defendant
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Navid Yadegar
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Date Filed # Docket Text
07/05/2005 1 NOTICE OF REMOVAL AND DEMAND FOR JURY TRIAL from Napa County Superior Court. Their case number is 26-29614. (Filing fee $250 receipt number 3373961). Filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) Additional attachment(s) added on 7/8/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/05/2005 2 ADR SCHEDULING ORDER: Case Management Statement due by 9/22/2005. Case Management Conference set for 10/6/2005 11:00 AM. (Attachments: # 1)(sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/05/2005 CASE DESIGNATED for Electronic Filing. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/08/2005 3 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter re: Various Court Docs (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/08/2005 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. Motion Hearing set for 8/18/2005 08:00 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) Modified on 7/11/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/08/2005 5 MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES in Support re 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Related document(s)4) (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) Modified on 7/11/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/28/2005 6 Memorandum in Opposition re 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/28/2005 7 Certificate of Interested Entities (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/28/2005 8 DECLARATION of Scott Wainner re: 6 IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFF ALL ENTHUSIAST, INC.'S MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO DISMISS filed byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A# 2 Exhibit B)(Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) Modified on 8/1/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/29/2005 9 NOTICE of Appearance by Jamie L. Dupree Notice of Appearance of Counsel (Dupree, Jamie) (Filed on 7/29/2005) (Entered: 07/29/2005)
07/29/2005 10 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE by All Enthusiast, Inc. re 9 Notice of Appearance (Dupree, Jamie) (Filed on 7/29/2005) (Entered: 07/29/2005)
08/03/2005 11 Reply to Opposition to Defendants' Motion to Dismiss filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit Exhibit A)(O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 8/3/2005) (Entered: 08/03/2005)
08/04/2005 12 ORDER DENYING MOTION TO DISMISS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION AND VACATING HEARING by Judge Alsup denying 4 Motion to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction (whalc1, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/4/2005) (Entered: 08/04/2005)
08/17/2005 13 ANSWER to Complaint with Jury Demand, COUNTERCLAIM against All Enthusiast, Inc., All Enthusiast, Inc. byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 8/17/2005) (Entered: 08/17/2005)
08/22/2005 14 MOTION for leave to appear in Pro Hac Vice, Dan R. Gresham, Esq. filed by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/22/2005) (Entered: 08/23/2005)
08/22/2005 Received Order re [14] MOTION for leave to appear in Pro Hac Vice by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/22/2005) (Entered: 08/23/2005)
08/30/2005 15 ANSWER TO COUNTERCLAIM byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 8/30/2005) (Entered: 08/30/2005)
09/06/2005 16 ORDER by Judge Willam Alsup granting [14] Motion for Pro Hac Vice of Dan R. Gresham. (dt, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 9/6/2005) (Entered: 09/06/2005)
09/15/2005 17 ADR Certification (ADR L.R. 3-5b) of discussion of ADR options (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 9/15/2005) (Entered: 09/15/2005)
09/22/2005 18 JOINT CASE MANAGEMENT STATEMENT and Proposed Order filed by Plurplanet, Inc., All Enthusiast, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 9/22/2005) (Entered: 09/22/2005)
09/29/2005 19 CLERK'S NOTICE Rescheduling Case Management Conference for 10/6/2005 03:00 PM. (dt, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 9/29/2005) (Entered: 09/29/2005)
10/06/2005 21 Minute Entry: Initial Case Management Conference held on 10/6/2005 before William Alsup (Date Filed: 10/7/2005), Case referred to mediation. Jury Trial set for 9/11/2006 07:30 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. (Court Reporter Michael Shintaku.) (dt, COURT STAFF) (Date Filed: 10/7/2005) Modified on 10/7/2005 (dt, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 10/07/2005)
10/07/2005 20 CASE MANAGEMENT SCHEDULING ORDER: ORDER REFERRING CASE to ADR Unit for Mediation. Discovery due by 4/28/2006. Jury Trial set for 9/11/2006 07:30 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. Motions due by 6/15/2006. Pretrial Conference set for 8/21/2006 02:00 PM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. Signed by Judge William Alsup on 10/7/2005. (whasec, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 10/7/2005) (Entered: 10/07/2005)
10/24/2005 22 ADR Clerk's Notice Appointing Jo S. Levy as Mediator dated 10/24/2005. (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 10/24/2005) (Entered: 10/24/2005)
11/09/2005 Mediator would like to conduct the required Pre MED phone conference by 11/30/05. Parties should confirm their availability for the call by 11/14/05. (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 11/9/2005) (Entered: 11/09/2005)
11/14/2005 Pre MED phone conference scheduled on Thursday, December 1, 2005 at 12:00 noon Eastern time (9:00 A.M. Pacific time). (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 11/14/2005) (Entered: 11/14/2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PACER Service Center
Transaction Receipt

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 10:21 AM

What a freaking messed up lawsuit.

When did variable names become patented? This is a bad precident, since anyone using a variable that maybe even close to some company's, they can get sued.

That PDF doesn't even go into proving the case that Brian stoled anything, let alone did anything wrong. What it does show they mediated in the end (for court/lawyer fees; or either party to save face).

Either way, this is a chill for all modders.

Chris

vbcorolla

11-22-2005, 10:34 AM

Gunter studied and experimented with the computer code underlying the program with the intent of re-packaging the Photopost program and then distributing it for illicit financial gains.
In contravention of the license he used Photopost as a basis for essentially a "copy-cat" program.
Gunter then exploited Photopost for his own commercial purposes, utilizing the program beyond one website and beyond handling photo images on a private, non-commercial basis.

11. Having misappropriated intellectual property from All Enthusiasts and violated the license, Gunter operates under the guise of PlurPlanet, Inc. and markets his own version of the program.
PlurPlanet and Gunter distribute their computer program under the name 'vBadvanced Gallery' which is derived from Gunters unlicensed and illegal use of Photopost.
Gunter and PlurPlanet have sold products and thereby improperly taken sales and profits from All Enthusiasts, as well as injured All Enthusiast's goodwill in the marketplace. Defendants systematic activities marketing vBadvanced Gallery are nationwide, including reacing into california..

12. When All Enthusiasts ascertained information that Gunter/PlurPlanet might be engaged in wrongdoing, All Enthusiasts promptly raised objections. In response, Gunter acknowledged his wrongdoing. He c..... sharing the photopost program with another person in violation of the license.
He also made further admissions about the vBadvanced Gallery as follows:

'Many parts of the user and still look similar to Photopost since I had been running that before I wrote my own and didn't want to change too much and confuse my users..'

'Yes, some of the variable names are still the same as Photoposts. (piece missing) It was much easier at the time to keep some of the same variable names when I was first writing the script and before I had intentions of reselling it...'

=summary=

13. trafficing All enthusiasts intellectual property supposedly

14. Abuse of the PlurPlanet company for being it's sole proprieter

15. intentionally hurt All Enthusiasts

16. gunter had a photopost license

17. gunter misused photopost

18. By reason of the foregoing, All Enthusiasts has been damaged by Gunter directly, in an amount in excess of $250,000, to be proven at trial

Photopost sacked him. The only real illegal thing I see is 1 license violation for sharing the copy of the software. That carries a max of $50,000 in any court. not $250,000+

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 11:05 AM

Thing is there is no court document that proved he even shared a program. There's nothing there, but Brian gets this cloud over him that he's some thief -- even though the courts didn't rule that he was (they have to rule of one's guilt or innocence, not what's listed as guilt in some court document).

This case was to go before a jury, but at the last moment was kicked into mediation. Although a quick exit, under the settlement, Brian can't even defend his own name. That's what really stinks.

Chris

Noppid

11-22-2005, 11:35 AM

If you read the PDF, the evidence is very clear. Albiet this looks underhanded, it was actually played out, IMO, as just business.

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 12:03 PM

This is the problem: until a court rules of guilt or innocence, anything listed in that document isn't proven. Which means it's up to conjecture. Without a court ruling, we won't know actually if anything illegal was committed.

They settled. But that doesn't mean guilt or innocence.

Chris

Exactly. As I said before. I have it on good authority that Brian had spent in excess of $30k on lawyers to date to defend this case, and they were telling him a trial would take that total to over $100k. Settling was his only smart option financially. However, settling does not mean he admitted guilt. Settlements happen all the time because its not financially feasible to defend.

Simple Example. Lets assume I own a site, ABC.com, and its a sucessful site. You register ABC-1.com to compete with me. You build a site, but its not making much money yet. I sue you for the domain alleging trademark infrigement claiming I have trademark rights in "ABC".

You have to decide if its worth paying $5k to a lawyer to defend a $15 domain name. If you win, you get to keep the $15 domain name, but are out the $5k you paid the lawyer. If you lose, you, I get the domain name and your out $5k to boot.

Smart move is to just give up the domain name and move on. It doesnt mean you admit you infringed on my trademark, or that I even have a trademark. Just means you didnt think it made sense financially to fight.

gprime

11-22-2005, 04:13 PM

Well, I can see why Brian would want to avoid a lawsuit. Did a bit of research. It seems Scott is worth about $15 million.

ScottW

11-22-2005, 04:27 PM

Well, I can see why Brian would want to avoid a lawsuit. Did a bit of research. It seems Scott is worth about $15 million.

Oh LORD now the speculation has officially topped out :eek:. Nothing I've ever done has ever been worth near that amount, dot com bust and tech market fallout aside. I run a successful business that does not begin and end with PhotoPost and maybe some day I'll reach that level but you've got to be joking. I'm simply a hard working entrepreneur working to protect my business and do what I think is right.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 04:35 PM

Well, wouldnt it have made more sense to just come out and tell everyone what happened instead of all the speculation and searching for information? All your dancing around everything makes you look un-trustworthy to me.

ScottW

11-22-2005, 04:37 PM

Not really, considering both sides are under an NDA not to discuss the matter.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 04:56 PM

Well, enjoying the PR?

ScottW

11-22-2005, 05:02 PM

I feel sorry for you that you harbor such bitterness and ill-will especially given that you are in posession of only a tiny snapshot of the facts.

vbadvanced gallery customers can already download the product from our site, our forums are up, our email support is up, we have hired 2 new well-respected support people so far this week who already have extensive experience supporting vbadvanced gallery and we are working on hiring additional staff as well.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 05:07 PM

dont feel sorry for me. I dont harbor ill-will. I simply think you have acted poorly in this situation, and caused alot of VB owners alot of aggravation. From your various posts, I dont trust you, mainly because you seem to be very non committal and evasive with the answers you do give.

ScottW

11-22-2005, 05:10 PM

Again, I can't be completely forthcoming due to the NDA. But that's only regarding the business side of things. From a customer service, support, and product perspective, I have been nothing but completely upfront and I have followed through on every promise that I have made.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 05:18 PM

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 05:44 PM

Yes.

It's hard to place a thumb on it, but I think folks sense something isn't right. Jelsoft combed vbAdvanced over for code violations, and vbAdvanced seem to pass muster with them. Coders in the vB community (who live and breath it) have worked with both products. Someone out of all of them would've found out there was lifted copy and would've reported it already. I've seen mods get pulled from vb.org because of code lifting, and I believe astute coders would've known and policed their own home of copyright violations, too (as they do it).

This is what smells so fishy, and to fight a guy who's offering a product the vB community likes is also, IMO, ugly.

I don't have a license to vBA or PP, but what I dislike in all of this is a modder who made a very good product (and servicing what he sells) is slammed, and by the looks of it, for fun or plain meaness. That doesn't bode well for the vB community and for all the volunteers that keep the addon community alive and kicking. Such ugly lawsuits hurts such communities, and to me that is evil (I may not know coding much, but I least understand pride in one's work). There's kids just learning code and pros over at vb.org, and they're donating their time and even money to get mods done. They don't need sharks running around claiming that their script is stolen when there's no proven evidence otherwise.

This normally isn't my business (it's a coder's brawl), but even I understand that there's some decor you expect from a business, and if you cater to the vB community, at least behave accordingly (we pay good money for products and expect good PROFESSIONAL service for it).

Chris

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 05:53 PM

Well, Scott doesnt seem to think we pay enough:

By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)

We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

gprime

11-22-2005, 06:34 PM

we have hired 2 new well-respected support people so far this week who already have extensive experience supporting vbadvanced gallery and we are working on hiring additional staff as well.

I know you hired Kevin, but who else from vba did you snag?

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 06:38 PM

For that much it's like paying for XP (a very major program). vB has a lot more code, and they do service what they sell pretty well.

I didn't bother to buy PP because of the price tag (looked at it over a year ago). For that much money, I'd expect at least a comprehensive CMS or a comprehensive blog (much better than anything offered, too).

Been spoiled by vB too much, and when online products don't compare to it's tight code and service, it's like throwing time and money away.

Chris

cinq

11-22-2005, 07:14 PM

I looked through the PDF and am puzzled.

To study and experiment .... with the intent of re-packaging the Photopost program
and then distributing it for illicit financial gain.

If the code is entirely different.
How can that be misappropriating intellectual property ? Isn't the implementation what counts and not the concept/idea ?

Many parts of the user end still look similar to Photopost since I had been running that before I wrote my own and didn't want to change too much and confused my users...

And how is that a 'chargeable offence' ?
Maintaining a similar user interface, a common interface, is simply good UI design practice for programmers/designers.
If that is the case, would all websites be sued by the very first website, since millions use tables to display information ?

Yes some of the variable names are still the same as Photopost's...It was much easier at the time to keep some of the same variable names when I was first writing the script and before I had intentions of reselling it..

I was also not concerned if some of the variables were still the same as Photopost's since I did not have intentions of reselling it at that time...

Are variable names copyrighted ?

ChrisLM2001

11-22-2005, 07:37 PM

yoyo

11-22-2005, 08:11 PM

subq

11-22-2005, 08:14 PM

I was very bummed to see the news about vbgallery being sold to the photopost goons.

I have used photopost for many many years and the guys that run it are far from professional. In fact, they are kooks to say the least.

On the other hand, vbgallery and Brian were top notch.

It is always a bummer to see a good product get sold to a lame company.

Oh well, I guess I won't be renewing my vbgallery license. :(

subq

11-22-2005, 08:17 PM

If the lawsuit was based on similarities between vbagallery and pp, then it seems to me that at then end of the negotiations when brian signed over vbagallery then they would pull the product from the market, and instead switch the vbadvanced users over to pp instead - but the fact is they are NOT the same, which is why they continue to offer it. ALso, the amount quoted above regarding future pricing is crazy, and unrealistic, and I think pp will find that the market will not bear such a ridiculously high price.

yoyo, you obviously haven't followed the PP guys and their tactics for too long. I don't know what really happened with this deal but I would not put anything past them. In addition, you are dead wrong about the pricing. Those guys will do whatever they want to and they do give a flying flip what the "market" says about it. You can expect the price to go up considerably.

cinq

11-22-2005, 08:21 PM

No. By their very nature (as they change...lol) variable names aren't copyrighted, let alone patented. It's like if Jelsoft wanted to copyright "tborder", it can't be done as it's a common word.

Lifting code wholesale IS a crime, but by all accounts (from those who use both products) that's not the case. They're arguing over what LOOKS to be a similiar product -- and unlike Jelsoft looking over vbAdvance for possibly stealing code (and was cleared), this didn't occur with the PP group, they sued instead.

Chris

So why is the variable names thingy an issue even ?

And since he didnt lift code wholesale, just perhaps maintaining a somewhat similiar look, why is there an infringement of intellectual property rules/laws ?

So why is the whole affair an issue even ?
So maybe running more than one instance of just one license can get you in trouble .. but what they are bringing him to court for, for most of it at least, doesn't seem to make sense nor hold up and yet they apparently 'won'.
What gives ?

Just trying to understand the dynamics of these court rulings better.

Joeychgo

11-22-2005, 10:29 PM

Well, as ive previously said, I have it on good authority that Brian at VBA spent $30k+ to date defending this case. He just didnt have any more money to fight with, and had to settle. It says nothing about the merits of the case. I dont know the facts of the case - just the allegations. Maybe Brian would have lost at trial. I dont know. We'll never know.

Brad

11-22-2005, 11:10 PM

When something is settled out of court neither party have to prove anything. They decided to settle this out of court apperantly so going over the details of the case and trying to prove them is basicly useless from a legal stand point.

The legal fees to fight something like this are most of the time not worth the trouble. Facing someone with lots of money to back up their claims is no small task when you're one guy working out of the home.

ScottW

11-23-2005, 03:23 AM

Facing someone with lots of money to back up their claims is no small task when you're one guy working out of the home.

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath. I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts. I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here. There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 04:20 AM

So why is the variable names thingy an issue even ?

And since he didnt lift code wholesale, just perhaps maintaining a somewhat similiar look, why is there an infringement of intellectual property rules/laws ?

So why is the whole affair an issue even ?
So maybe running more than one instance of just one license can get you in trouble .. but what they are bringing him to court for, for most of it at least, doesn't seem to make sense nor hold up and yet they apparently 'won'.
What gives ?

Just trying to understand the dynamics of these court rulings better.

All that is what stinks here.

When Jelsoft thought Brian lifted their code with vBAdvanced, they suspended vBA participation at vb.org until they combed through it to ensure their code wasn't lifted. They cleared it, and Brian was free to continue. That shows a "light touch" from Jelsoft and in return has benefits for the entire vB community (Brian's product was aimed at our community, and so well integrated it's the closest it can get to having a Jelsoft product without them coding it itself). If Jelsoft was litigation happy, the vB community would be in a lurch of not having a fairly close products, and they'd be reduced to third party forumware that's not to vB standards (hey, we pay good money for a good product, we expect equal quality extensions). Jelsoft has a vested interest in protecting their own turf, but they're also allowing a very active modding community to extend vBulletin's usefulness. On a business model it's a winning combination -- they sell the base code, the community expands it. It's something like combining closed source and open source. A happy medium.

When a company is more interested in property rights, than the needs of a community (or as an extension to expand a product's usefulness), it kills not only their product line, there's no built in rah rah group to keep their community together. What this rival did to Brian was to shoot themselves in the foot, then the other foot by being arrogant and ugly on multiple boards (the worst PR I've seen by any company online -- and I thought I've seen some really bad ones). Their posts are all over the vB community boards, which hightlight the criticism of their customer service problems twice fold. I wouldn't have known about it's bad PR until seeing their posts myself of late, and frankly I'm disgusted to the level of unprofessionalism -- it's like seeing a 15 year-old who just found their penis (and that domain name that is bragged about gives me the impression of a snake in a grass, too -- furthering the PR disaster). Never had seen such horrid PR mistakes than what has transpired. It looks bad, even from an observer POV. It's almost like they want to sink. :eek:

Brian maybe guilty of sharing a copy of a license (or did he loan it?), but from what I've seen with Jelsoft's staff is, is to give a warning -- which is usually enough to amend the situation, not send in the Marines. Quiet resolution is what companies want, as no company needs a messy PR disaster (why complaining about a horrid host at WHT can get you swift service!).

Personally, I don't care how they reorganize, if the company heads can't see ---what--- their former clients disliked in their service, it'll mean they'll still have the same problems in the new service. For the non drama queens, IMO, it's time to shop for a new product (which I hope Jelsoft offers, so we don't have this I SUE YOU squabbles in the mod community <-- which is at least 95% volunteer).

Chris

yoyo

11-23-2005, 05:18 AM

yoyo, you obviously haven't followed the PP guys and their tactics for too long. I don't know what really happened with this deal but I would not put anything past them. In addition, you are dead wrong about the pricing. Those guys will do whatever they want to and they do give a flying flip what the "market" says about it. You can expect the price to go up considerably.
They can try to charge whatever they want, but the market will not bear such an expensive gallery mod for vbulletin. They may not care what the market says, but that is bad business. When TWT Commish was the only game in town for a decent quiz script I am sure he sold many copies, however when a free quiz was released I am sure that cut in to his business a lot. The same with vbstyles Hide Hack. The same goes here - the fact is there are many cheaper alternatives, with better support than photopost. Once the word gets around the vb modding community that pp forced vbag out of business there will be a huge backlash against photopost as well. Brian has made a lot of friends in this community though his goodwill, and photopost has NOT.

yoyo

11-23-2005, 05:30 AM

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward.
You should have thought of that earlier. This is not going to go away. Brian is well-liked in the vbulletin community, and the way that this played out stinks outright. To say "Everything is fine - and that can be proven by the fact that we both have stuck to the NDA" is total crap. I am willing to bet that Brian is not the one who asked for the NDA, either, so you look foolish by using that as a defense. VBAG is obviously a different and BETTER product or you would not still be offering a version of it. I think photopost has awful business practices, and that their products are third rate, and their support has a history of being awful and unhelpful, and I will be sure to tell anyone who is thinking of buying a gallery mod for vbulletin to avoid photopost like the plague.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 05:47 AM

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath.

It's not hard, when this case was booted to FEDERAL court, not settled in the mod community itself (which polices itself fairly well).

A matter the community could've handled inhouse got turned into a case that has "greed' stamped all over it. If you can't see how and why that is how it comes off, it's hopeless you can understand the other complaints about your service. All of this never needed to be if you guys would be more interested in LISTENING, instead of ligitating and bragging and showing a butt (or getting supporters to act the same -- that thread at vB turned nasty on a dime all the sudden, BTW).

What you don't seem to understand or even want to understand, is that the mod community is a small independent group that donates their time. Some, like Brian, can actually make a paying mod (and kudos for the guys that can do it), and it's an inspiration for budding coders and coders learning the trade in college. Lawsuits put a damper not only on what YOU'RE interested in, what the rest of the community is interested in. Go after one, it has a ripple effect in the rest of the community. That's why this affair looks evil, even to non coders who just want a product as it can prevent further development of like kind mods.

It's like all of the jibes about MS are true, that it gobbles up rivals to squash competiton, to the point it becomes the most hated software on Earth. Can you understand at least that analogy? It doesn't help your company, to by the looks of it, squashing competition (nor does it help the mod community expand). You're not an island, no software is. From closed to open source someone somewhere will want to tweak it and make it better (and even MS doesn't squash Windowblinds and other style or function companies, because they understand it helps their customers stay happy -- one thing about MS, they even welcome folks to expand XP's features, SDKs and help on making icons,etc., you name it [even if you're going make money from it]).

I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts.

It was a wrong way to do it. Mediation could've worked wonders, and even better just hiring an INDEPENDENT code decompiler to go through it all and release the results. That's enough evidence to satisfy most if there was code lifting (as other modders don't like their code stolen, either <-- you'll see the community has a vested interest in policing themselves). You let the community handle their own, as rep is everything in that line of business.

Now that this is done, and folks are going over both vBGallery and PP to see what you're complaining about is or isn't true, what happens when they find it's not true? It backfires on you, and that sting is worse than any legal bill, as the community will eat your product and company alive with boycotts and simply refusing to buy/renew it. They're not fools, they wouldn't want to be treated like that -- they'll pass their own judgement with their pocketbooks.

I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here.

We don't know that. All we see are the results. One with a gag on them.

There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

Professional? Maybe the lawyers were, but not what's been displayed online with this crossfire. It comes off childish and ugly. A Wal-Mart exec would get fired for less if this junk got TV time, as it's a PR disaster.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

That all depends how you run PP, and how it won't interfere with other modders out there building SIMILIAR products. Will you try to go after Jelsoft if they made a Gallery extension too? Claiming it's similiar? Claiming because anyone of their staff else has a copy they stole code?

See how ugly that lawsuit looks? See how it doesn't help anyone but yourselves? And why folks are disgusted in it? There's more questions, and the answers don't match up with the evidence at hand.

Chris

Brad

11-23-2005, 05:50 AM

This was not my intention Scott, admitly I am going on second hand information. Nor do I own photopost or any vBadvanced products. I was not speaking about this situation directly in the second part of the post and I should have made that clear.

I do have friends that work over at vBa and while I'm not asking questions, they are certainly following the NDA and are not speaking about the issue.

Honestly all of this is none of my business, and I don't care to make it my business. So I'll leave you with good luck and won't post in this thread anymore.

Have a good'n ;) :)

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath. I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts. I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here. There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

subq

11-23-2005, 07:35 AM

It really doesn't matter whether they are a mountain or a mole hill, they are lame and it appears some really good information has come out of this thread about their tactics. Though I was aware of such tactics beforehand.

I personally will not be renewing any licenses with them and will be recommending the same to all my customers.

Their products/code aren't that great anyway.

I suggest people speak with their wallets (or lack thereof) and put word of mouth advertising to use, after all it is the best form of advertising around.

vbcorolla

11-23-2005, 10:14 AM

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 11:46 AM

Now that I think about how I own 2 vba gallery licenses.. they might actually become more valuable to some people.. This could drive the value of a vba license up over a photopost vba license :eek: Too bad you can't sell them (read the vbadvanced license agreement), but still. Value++:D

I betcha brian doesnt care of you sell them now :)

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 12:49 PM

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 01:14 PM

From vb.com

Some pretty convincing things inside of the court report.

I want to point something out. That court 'report' is just the complaint filed by PP. It is NOT evidence. It is merely an accusation and only one side of the story. Complaints always tell the story in a light most favorable to the complainant, and doesnt mean that any of the allegations could be proven. Dont read the complaint and conclude Brian of VBA did all that. Its just an allegation, its not evidence or a court decision.

gprime

11-23-2005, 01:22 PM

From vb.com

I want to point something out. That court 'report' is just the complaint filed by PP. It is NOT evidence. It is merely an accusation and only one side of the story. Complaints always tell the story in a light most favorable to the complainant, and doesnt mean that any of the allegations could be proven. Dont read the complaint and conclude Brian of VBA did all that. Its just an allegation, its not evidence or a court decision.

Especially since (I believe) Photopost was still using Perl when Brian coded vba. I'd like to know how code can be stolen in a different language. Having a similar style is not illegal either, otherwise almost every paid vB skinner would be out of business.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 01:41 PM

Does anyone know how many are looking over the code, yet? Because they can pipe in and tell us if Brian built his before PP switched to php. At least that question can be answered fairly quickly, while others are going through each line.

Chris

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 02:08 PM

I dont know - but would love a few coders to look at both and let us know their opinions.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 02:19 PM

BTW, notice where the "hot" posting is at now? Wonder why? Already got a post censored there over the "fan boi rah rah" remark.

Chris

gprime

11-23-2005, 02:23 PM

BTW, notice where the "hot" posting is at now? Chris

Where? I'm guessing that hellhole, TAZ?

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 02:47 PM

Yep.

Sad that you have to tiptoe around just to post and not have words pulled.

One thing is for sure I like it that they think I'm "ignorant". There must be a reason why I don't back off, eh? ;)

Let's see: bad vibes on 3 people. 1 (and his associate) is serving 5 to 20 in federal pen (that one got national airplay). 1 is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Another, no longer practices medicine.

It's why I'm very patient about awaiting evidence (not soap operas). ;)

Chris

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 02:54 PM

Let's see: bad vibes on 3 people. 1 (and his associate) is serving 5 to 20 in federal pen (that one got national airplay). 1 is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Another, no longer practices medicine.

huh???

theMusicMan

11-23-2005, 02:57 PM

@Chris: I have been reading your posts recently on the various vB communities, and I must say that I very much like your approach and straight/no mess/direct attitude. Kudos to ya sir.

You will find that TAZ limits what it offers, and does not allow users the choice of all available, relevant and appropriate community resources out there. For example, you can talk about any web site here on vBW, without fear of recrimination or of the deceitful use of replacement variables. You simply cannot do that on TAZ, sandman uses replacement variables to censor out those sites that he considers a threat. This is a shame as TAZ itself is a superb site, shame about the modus operandi of admins there.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, it is a shame that TAZ is not conducive to the open and pragmatic debate prevalent here and on other excellent community resources.

gprime

11-23-2005, 03:17 PM

sandman uses replacement variables to censor out those sites that he considers a threat.

As evidenced by Best-Board.com, which when used, is replaced with tazcopycat.com. :mad: I guess being like TAZ, but expurgated of greed, favoritism, and deception, and offering plenty of free resouces makes us a clone. :rolleyes:

Did he ever stop to think that if he behaved in a more appropriate manner, there wouldn't necissarily be a need for B-B? (Of course we give away prizes, something which TAZ is too stingy to do)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I for one, though not surprised, am annoyed to here (can't see--IP ban, and I don't feel compelled to use a proxy) to here him kissing PP ass. He's doing this just so that he can create another strategic alliance in an effort to quash his competition.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 03:27 PM

Joey: this is nothing of that sort! Just saying I'm not a "new kid on the block" on legalese. ;) I'm not an attorney, but do know something about the Law and it's practice.

Just trying to say....been there, done that, and I can carve through BS like a hot knife through butter (not into soap operas, just the facts). If libel wasn't much of a concern, you guys would've gotten a real "Perry Manson" treat. ;)

BTW, everyone: do be careful of what you say, no direct accusations, no libel. You can be tripped very easily through prodding and pushing (or questions about your own intelligence, honor and other traps). If you're nabbed on libel, you're gagged and out of money too. You have to dot those "I's" and cross those "T's" very carefully.

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 03:42 PM

As evidenced by Best-Board.com, which when used, is replaced with tazcopycat.com. :mad: I guess being like TAZ, but expurgated of greed, favoritism, and deception, and offering plenty of free resouces makes us a clone. :rolleyes:

Did he ever stop to think that if he behaved in a more appropriate manner, there wouldn't necissarily be a need for B-B? (Of course we give away prizes, something which TAZ is too stingy to do)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I for one, though not surprised, am annoyed to here (can't see--IP ban, and I don't feel compelled to use a proxy) to here him kissing PP ass. He's doing this just so that he can create another strategic alliance in an effort to quash his competition.

I'm new to these histories, and if you guys can fill in the gaps it would be wonderful.

Trying to figure out why all this has a sinister ring (for a lack of a better term) to it.

All I know is Brian is being creamed when NO ONE in public has evidence of his guilt. He maybe guilty as sin, or as innocent, but NO ONE knows the truth until the evidence is in. That's a simple and straight forward fact.

Chris

theMusicMan

11-23-2005, 04:00 PM

Nothing too sinister here Chris, except in my opinion - with the admin on TAZ.

I am being serious here when I say be careful what you ask on there, as you are likely to get yourself banned; and under no circumstances put a link to certain other forums in your signature. Simply being a member of certain other www sites seems to be enough to get banned from there, which is a shame because as I say, TAZ is a very good resource - just not as the mission statement suggests... for all community administrators. I can tell you more but I don't wish to disclose the content of full threads in public... PM me by all means if you need further information.

Are you aware of the dirty tactics campaign employed by British Airways when they were threatened by Virgin... well put it this way, there's some synergy there ;) The thing is, not many people are aware of this, and of those who are - are afraid to speak out in case of being subject to the same dirty tricks. It makes no odds to me or my wife or my 14yr old son... ;)

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 04:10 PM

Lets not turn this into a TAZ bashing thread. I may not agree with his methods, but the admin of TAZ is entitled to run his site anyway he sees fit, and certainly he has a following. Naturally I prefer VBW and BB - :)

theMusicMan

11-23-2005, 04:42 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Joey... I for one am not bashing TAZ, and as you know, I never have. I do feel though that the following to whom you refer deserve to be as informed as possible on certain things and is the reason I posted thus.

vbcorolla

11-23-2005, 05:32 PM

Joeychgo

11-23-2005, 05:36 PM

Interesting.... Like I said, just one side of the story is all the court documents provide, and certainly not proven to be true.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 05:55 PM

Crap. This stuff is all over the internet. :( Another den of snakes. Is there anywhere online that's not full of politics and who can screw who????

Had an opportunity to join their teams and such but declined (never was into being in a club, as I value independence more). Just like the addons at WHT, or even other forums, but declined all. It's due to the crappy politics and other soap operas that comes from being in some special group. Not into small talk, not into gossip, and definitely not stabbing others in the back to "fit in".

So understand what can transpire, and how dirty it can get (and I mean dirty underhand junk you'd think came straight from Hollyweird). And not surprised certain parties are there and can post safely too. :rolleyes:

Oops....didn't see the exchange above. Tardy reply. :x

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 06:07 PM

I just did a code comparison between the two pieces of software. compared every line of code in every file against the others, and..

0 lines we're the same between the two pieces of software.
1 variable was duplicated that I found.. $username

so, there ya are, stolen lines of code!

Like to see what the other side has come up with too (if they're silent, folks can conclude they can't bring up anything either), then compare both. Then it's fair and square in the open, and folks can see who really is the guilty party.

What is telling is Viper's comment that things are sealed and his cockiness that it is secret. Apparently he didn't realize that some things no court can seal -- especially if he wants to stay in business -- the code is there with those who own it, and anyone can do a compare and release the findings in public. ;)

No libel. No infringement of code. All blissful intel that anyone with access is free to talk about without any gag order.

Don't ya just love justice? ;)

Chris

smacklan

11-23-2005, 06:14 PM

I'm good friends with Brian and hope to be for a long time...having said that, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm growing weary of the whole thing...maybe it's time to move on and let our money and loyalties do the talking?

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 06:41 PM

An accusation was made, and to date, none of the accusers have shown ANY code has been lifted. It's only logical to conclude if no evidence to shown there is no merit to the accusation. Takes NOTHING to go through the code and compare it, and nothing to report the findings.

So what gives? Only a few are gagged....not the entire rah rah section.

Chris

vbcorolla

11-23-2005, 06:53 PM

the code is there with those who own it, and anyone can do a compare and release the findings in public. ;)

W00t W00t, you know it.

There may be other duplicate variables I missed, but I'm 99% shure of my results for the line vs line part.

ChrisLM2001

11-23-2005, 07:19 PM

Guess that little sideshow got finished quick, and notice not a peep about that SLAPP and anti-SLAPP lesson???? Avoiding it like a plague, because he made a major boo-boo and got caught on it. ;)

Reread his first sentence, and why the whole point was lost when I ask about those little SLAPP and anti-SLAPP nuances. ;)

==Zing==

Chris

Chris M

11-23-2005, 07:25 PM

If Photopost agrees to it, as an independant coder I'll happily examine both pieces of software and determine once and for all if there is any copied code...

Somehow, I doubt they will ;)

Chris

minstrel

11-23-2005, 08:02 PM

Simply being a member of certain other www sites seems to be enough to get banned from there, which is a shame because as I say, TAZ is a very good resource
or maybe was a good rersource?

Possibly following the same downward path taken by WebMasterWorld and SEOChat? Arrogance followed by gradual decline into obscurity?

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 03:38 AM

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /forums/showthread.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache/1.3.34 Server at www.theadminzone.com Port 80

Down for the holidays or a complete ban? lololol

Chris

theMusicMan

11-24-2005, 03:53 AM

I did say so Chris... looks like you can join the ever increasing and exclusive membership of the banned by sandy fan club.

On a serious note - and I am not TAZ bashing here, I am simply commenting on something that is important and perhaps pf interest to community forum managers. Do people agree that it is a crying shame that such a useful web site/resource doesn't permit open, pragmatic and constructive debate on matters that we are all concerned with?

Shame...

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 05:33 AM

So that's how a ban there looks like -- can't even access the articles (which has zero to do with posting). That's a ban that's counter-productive.

Well, I hope this thread will remain the testament of this event then. Because if this isn't said, more modders can face the same crap, and the vB modding community will splinter (it'll be too hot to write a script with someone running around slurring "it's stolen", or mails members legal notices to harass).

Chris

theMusicMan

11-24-2005, 05:35 AM

This thread will indeed stay here and open for all to view and post within Chris. We welcome open and honest discussion and debate wholeheartedly.

smacklan

11-24-2005, 05:49 AM

Certainly a better run, less biased and arrogant environment here for sure!! I suspect TAZ is destined for the trash heaps of history as they become more and more irrelevant to the admin community!

Noppid

11-24-2005, 05:57 AM

I'm certain we have our own brand of bias and arrogance. We just let ya hit back. ;)

smacklan

11-24-2005, 05:59 AM

I'm certain we have our own brand of bias and arrogance. We just let ya hit back. ;)
LOL...well that one thing puts you light years ahead of where TAZ will ever be...

gprime

11-24-2005, 06:03 AM

Down for the holidays or a complete ban? lololol

Chris

That's happened to me as well. He banned me becoming Staff at Best-Board.com, and then after I agrued with him over at Forum Insider, pointing out that the ban was baseless and counterproductive, we unbanned me. That was only so that I could get access to the article section. Interestingly enough, when re-instated, I also got back my access to the "Inner Circle" section. Less then a day later, seems he changed his mind. And its annoying as hell. Because jackass though he may be, occasionally there are articles worth reading (like whatever Ted S posts) that I no longer have access to.

smacklan

11-24-2005, 06:12 AM

hahah...well I guess my last two remarks about them have just earned me a ban as well...in the last 10 minutes.

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /forums/index.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.34 Server at www.theadminzone.com Port 80

At this rate, everyone in the admin community will be banned...then what will they do?

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 06:15 AM

Was wondering why the forum seemed dead -- there had to be a reason it didn't have traffic, despite all the flashy paid ads. Now I know. Sad, because I recommended TAZ, and have no choice now, since I get banned for voicing an opinion. Why should I recommend a site to others knowing they can be banned for the same reason? Without opinions and exchanges, a forum is dead anyhow.

But thanks for the heads up guys, wouldn't have known any of this otherwise.

Chris

theMusicMan

11-24-2005, 06:21 AM

hahah...well I guess my last two remarks about them have just earned me a ban as well...in the last 10 minutes...what a bunch of freakin losers!!!

At this rate, everyone in the admin community will be banned...then what will they do?Join alternate communities where debate is encouraged, growth for all is a must, and as Nopid says... people are able to voice an opinion with no fear of recrimination or being banned.

@Chris: You're very welcome.

I guess the most reasonable debate regarding the current vBA v's PP situation now appears to be here, on vBWebmaster eh...;)

smacklan

11-24-2005, 06:26 AM

I agree...my remark of "then what will they do?" was not about us admin's, but TAZ...with no members or traffic they are determining their own destiny.

But enough about TAZ...sorry for jacking this thread...let's move on to more important discussions ;)

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 06:51 AM

Saw that Sandman was looking on the vB thread. So he's no doubt crawling the boards.

Not into slamming sites, as I believe in karma, but I just wish folks would learn a "light touch" is a better way to admin a forum. It's how to make a forum inviting, and keep folks inline without the chains and cattle prods. People are passionate, everyone has a particular interest and will defend it, it just gets ugly when folks want to control the conversation and dictate it instead. Then the ugliness and forum bad talk comes in.

Hopefully they'll learn, and all of the Admin forum sites can be about what they're for: helping to build communities and getting the HELP to do it!

Chris

minstrel

11-24-2005, 07:07 AM

It's sad but apparently not uncommon. A forum grows to the point where it becomes recognized as some sort of authority. This is followed by the forum owners starting to believe the hype. Thus begins the long slow downward slide from arrogance into obscurity.

See SEOChat, WebMasterWorld, WebProWorld, and apparently the Admin Zone.

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 07:49 AM

Or like with WHT, it's bought out and the decorum of the old forum is lost, and greed replaces function.

Well, the vb.com thread seems to be dying. Not of want, but when staff starts posting "move on" you know the lock is coming.

Chris

minstrel

11-24-2005, 07:56 AM

What's "WHT"?

theMusicMan

11-24-2005, 07:57 AM

What's "WHT"?WebHostingTalk.com

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 08:01 AM

WHT has it's own story, and it's own back channel talk as well. Read up on who bought it, and his colorful history, and see why theres folks not happy over it all (especially the Kansas City article).

ADDED:

It's a disease that seems to occur on a lot of forums. Look what happened to Tom's Hardware forum (the first one), MaximumPC Com port forum (and that nasty split). The web is full of many very important and popular sites getting cut off at the knees. Either by bad management, or members revolting. So not surprised it can happen with the admin forums as well.

It's another reason why I'm getting more and more interested in blogs. As they're designed for controversial topics, and without the censorship, buyouts and all the other headaches that seem to plague the forum world.

Chris

oldengine

11-24-2005, 08:13 AM

Join alternate communities where debate is encouraged, growth for all is a must, and as Nopid says... people are able to voice an opinion with no fear of recrimination or being banned.
I can tell you that I felt one Hell of a lot cooler after reading the PDF on the situation. NDAs are a bunch of crap for weenies! I'd rather know the truth of the matter. Just look at how many closed threads there are on other boards over this subject. Even the motives for closing the threads are suspicious.

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 08:48 AM

Or dropping bombs to show doubt (the post from Gary). I came away thinking more of what was said about the comment of 50% of the mods are crap at vB.org, than anything else. :/

Oh, well folks have to learn PR the hard way.

Chris

Noppid

11-24-2005, 09:01 AM

Now Trackpads, a supposed representative of PhotoPost, has decided to drag me into this mess. Check out this thread, he's apparently very good at his job.

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101340&page=3&pp=15

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 09:02 AM

Got to get the TBird and all together, guys, but shall return when all the holiday stuff is loaded in the fridge, freezer, and (looking outside and thinking, it's cold enough can it be used for storage). ;)

See ya in a few.

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 09:09 AM

Just read it, Noppid....Don't take the bait. Calm, cool, posting against nastiness rules everytime.

Tbird is out, so really got to go!

Chris

Noppid

11-24-2005, 09:16 AM

Just read it, Noppid....Don't take the bait. Calm, cool, posting against nastiness rules everytime.

Tbird is out, so really got to go!

Chris

I get it.

Have fun.

gprime

11-24-2005, 09:22 AM

Interesting new tidbit (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1019833&postcount=163).

Noppid

11-24-2005, 09:34 AM

What a hornets nest this has stirred!

I'm going on vacation. I don't want to get annoyed and say something stupid. At this point, I'm just defending insults.

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 09:35 AM

Just read it, Noppid....Don't take the bait. Calm, cool, posting against nastiness rules everytime.

Exactly... Look at the suggestions. Stay positive and keep your goal in mind..

1. everything need to be phrase able to translate custom fields and categories etc. into another language.
2. User comments/posts based upon/integrated to the vb post system (showing on "new threads, today threads etc.)
3. advanced search possibility (keywords, custom fields, categories etc.), for example if having a custom image field with a dropdownmenu
it should be also a dropdown search menu on the searchpage.
4. Additional styling options, for example custom thumbnail borders
5. Easy mass editing/adding of custom fields, descriptions etc.
6. rating system with possibility of resetting manually or time based.
7. Ajax system for quick moving, editing images.
8. An integrated basic auction system.

theMusicMan

11-24-2005, 10:34 AM

Indeed Greg, don't rise to the bait matey, you're better than that.

There is the serious possibility of a conflict of interests for Jellsoft here too given the conflicting opinions of Wayne Luke and Zachery - both vB Staff members, one for and one against vBAdvanced. I believe that if a vB Staff member uses their influence on other sites they then become Staff members on... they are representing the views of vB/Jellsoft and should perhaps be more careful about the what/how/when of their posts.

I posted my concerns on this on vB.com - watch as I will undoubtedly get shouted down by both parties.

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1019918#post1019918

Noppid

11-24-2005, 10:44 AM

Yeah, I'm moving on. Emotions are high in those camps. Tomorrow is another day.

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 12:14 PM

Oh, man, leave for a while and all that occurred. :(

BTW, they purposely trashed that thread to close it. That's what they're doing now to keep this all underwraps.

Good call on the conflict of interest as well. Because truthfully, if they're on vB time they need to stick with their official nicks, on off time unofficial (especially if any posts on controversial topics, as it's bad for the image of the forumware).

Damn feel like Ralph Nader. :/

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 12:40 PM

Everyone don't post at vB. Let it just sit there like a bullet wound in the stomach. He made a jackass out of himself anyway.

Never knew a broken track can gooble like a turkey, but hey, it's Thanksgiving. ;)

Chris

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 12:50 PM

Hmm -- a long way from the "poor little guy" he seems to have painted painted himself as.

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 12:54 PM

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 12:58 PM

Mercenaries are bought and paid for (and ever since get a bad rep -- since they fight for the highest bidder).

Oh, Jason: a sniper can still take down a gunner (especially since he's the 2nd least experienced of a tank crew). ;)

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 03:01 PM

Okay, I posted. Maybe shouldn't. But they're using a shotgun, and it's full of but 20 gauge buckshot on a wide choke trying to hit something.

Chris

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 04:52 PM

I would think that loaning the PP software has nothing to do with the case in reality.

Someone please explain to me how brian allegedly loaning his copy of PP to someone else has any bearing on whether or not he violated copyright in regard to vbgallery....

The 2 are totally unrelated.

Also, let me remind people - Brian didnt just make that statemnt quoted in the complaint. That statement was part of a conversation. Why didnt they include the whole conversation? We dont know in what context those statements were made. The conversatio surrounding it could easily change the meaning of what was sad.

Oh, and for those of you thinking that PP wasnt in this for the money. Let me offer this. #14 in the complaint is an attempt by PP to break the corporate veil of plurplanet. That means, if successful, not only could brian have lost the script and any assets of the company, but PP could have taken his house, cars, and anything else Brian owns to satisfy the judgement. So PP made this about alot more then just the script. And believe me, that is a real eye opener when you realize you could lose alot more then just the script.

These cases are rarely an open and shut, one side is all right and the other is all wrong. I would guess that no matter who won, the other side would not be paying attorney's fees of the winner. Those kinds of awards are usually reserved for truly frivalous lawsuits.

I remind everyone, you are not seeing ANY evidence, only the accusation. MY read on the complaint sounds to me like Brian was using PP and set out to develop something better for himself, eventually rewriting the entire code and developing a product he discovered could be resold. This says to me that he originally did not plan to resell the software, and as he got into developing it more and more, began to make it more his own until it no longer had any code in it that was original to the software.

I dont know if thats the case or not, but merely my speculation. I also suspect strongly that PP through so much legal power at Brian that even if Brian won the case, it would have cost him far more then the software was worth. I know Brian had already spent in excess of $30k on his defense. Should he spend another $100k on a trial? What does he win then? Its called a bad risk.

Again, just speculation - nothing more, but something to consider and debate.

smacklan

11-24-2005, 05:05 PM

I happen to own a copy of Brian's products script he uses on vba (don't ask him for it...he doesn't sell it ;)) and I can tell you that this is a complex script and is an original piece of work. Most of what Brian has developed, he initially developed from requests of members of his personal site (which is HUGH, btw) to enhance that site and eventually migrated it to vba and released it due to the large amount of requests he received. This whole thing stinks to high heaven and, I personally believe, has larger ramifications to the vb community as a whole than is being seen at this time...now let the conspiracy theorists chime in ;)

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 06:16 PM

I personally believe, has larger ramifications to the vb community as a whole than is being seen at this time...now let the conspiracy theorists chime in ;)

Im inclined to agree. How many people who might be able to make a better mousetrap, is gonna bother?

Im not a coder, but if I was, the natural instinct would be to make a gallery right now. But some might be scared off of making it commercially available, knowing PP could just squash me under the weight of legal fees.

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 06:36 PM

Way it looks, if that's the case, Jelsoft won't make a gallery script, either. There's no telling they'll get sued with some claim of lifted copy, because some staff member once (or is) using PP.

And I wonder if they even bothered to see how unflattering the initials "PP" is too. :rolleyes:

It's like a Keystone Cops are running the marketing/public relations side of the business. Will their next script be known as S.H.I.T., too?

Chris

vbcorolla

11-24-2005, 07:09 PM

oh now people on vbulletin.com are calling BS on my comparison :mad:

somebody else do it then if you don't believe me.

I used vBadvanced Gallery Beta 2 vs Photopost 5.11
then I did a 2nd comparison.. vBadvanced Gallery 1.0.1 vs Photopost 5.2

both had the same results for duplicate lines.. 0
duplicate variables were not compared.

ChrisLM2001

11-24-2005, 07:16 PM

gprime

11-24-2005, 08:19 PM

Im not a coder, but if I was, the natural instinct would be to make a gallery right now. But some might be scared off of making it commercially available, knowing PP could just squash me under the weight of legal fees.

Cinq said he'll be releasing one after he finishes beta testing vbArticles and vbGlossary.

Joeychgo

11-24-2005, 10:04 PM

They don't think it matters. There's 3 reasons for it:

1. It's messy and coders know they get inspiration from other works (even vB wasn't a totally unique product), and a code comparison can open skeletons they wish to keep hidden in a closet. Since it doesn't refer to them, it's "not my business".

Which is exactly why a coder should care. Brian didnt set out to develop a product for sale, he fell into it and made money by accident, not design. This could happen to ANY coder. Personally, I think it would have been better if PP had offered to buy the product from brian early on, and given him a paid position. I would have made such an offer right after fling of the suit (if I was PP). That makes everyone happy (except the lawyers, who dont get to create bills) - Even the past PP customers who dislike PP, would probably give them another chance with brian running the VB gallery side.

2. It's easier to let sleeping dogs lie. They don't bark and bite if they're asleep.

Well, the deal is done, and this is a fact. PP wont be giving VBgallery back. However, there are alot of emotions going on and they should be allowed to be expressed. Hence why I dont close this thread. (actually I very very rarely close a thread-on any forum)

3. Don't want flack to get back to their forums (almost everyone advertizes their forum, website and what not there).

WHERE? At vb.com? Please. My regular forums get very little play from the VB sites. Besides, what flack? Truth is, most people read for gossip value, and thats about it. If anything, I hope some people get the idea that here at VBW your able to discuss anything you like, as long as its intelligent and not a flame war type conversation, and not have to be banned or have threads closed left and right like many other forums.

theMusicMan

11-25-2005, 01:57 AM

I personally believe, has larger ramifications to the vB community as a whole than is being seen at this time...now let the conspiracy theorists chime in I totally agree with that comment John, you are spot on. Oh and by the way - this is a kick-ass thread here Joey, kudos to ya.

As Smacklan suggests above, there are a lot of interesting and significant issues that have been raised as a result of this fiasco - throughout the vB and admin communities.

Firstly, there's the issue of deceptive behaviour, dirty tricks and bannings 'a plenty over at TAZ. I was under the impression that TAZ is allegedly a community resource set up to help all community administrators build and develop their sites. To quote their mission statement "The Admin Zone is ... dedicated to the exchange of ideas and information relating to all aspects of managing Message Board Communities. Our goal is to become the leading resource for every Bulletin Board Administrator seeking the information and advice needed to plan, launch, and manage their online Communities."

Well... restricting access to information such as free styles, free design, contests etc that are incredibly useful for forum owners and admins doesn't sound to me as though TAZ is making that type of information available, and thus that mission statement is false and worth nothing. In fact, it is entirely hypocritical and somewhat deceptive.

The fact that replacement variables are regularly used to alter the names of many useful web sites and resources that members of TAZ themselves would find extremely beneficial - smacks;

of poor customer service and administration/management and
of dirty tricks and restrictive behaviour I don't see "Digital Point Copycat" popping up on the excellent Digital Point www site for example when the words TAZ or theAdminZone are written - do you? Neither do I see the use of replacement variables used for those words on any other www sites managed by honest and experienced administrators. It seems that some TAZ administrators ought to perhaps read more of the content on their site - which may improve the way the site is perceived by many people, though I believe as has been suggested by several people in this thread - that it is already too late.

For example, despite offering dozens of free bulletin board styles, across at least 4 alternate forum applications that many members of TAZ would find beneficial, try typing www.best-board.com (http://www.best-board.com/) into TAZ and see what transpires. Given the mission statement at TAZ, why would the admin not want this information known to their member base? As I said, TAZ has used many other sites for the benefit of TAZ… but of course acts in an entirely unreasonable manner and does not offer the same courtesy to his members.

Have you noticed how after announcing how he felt the PP vs. vBA thread at TAZ was the most reasonable on the subject, and requesting everyone continue to post there... well all of a sudden the conversation seems to have died? The reason for this is that many of the experienced vB'ers who posted within that thread have actually been banned. Yep, seasoned veterans in the vB community, banned because the TAZ admins didn't deem them fit to post. How do I know this… well they have told me, and are now both here and on www.best-board.com (http://www.best-board.com/) where people can post in open and honest debate without fear of recrimination, or of being banned.

Secondly, as I mentioned in the thread on vB.com, there is perhaps the possibility of this becoming awkward for Jelsoft, as there is somewhat of a conflict of interests looming.

On the one hand, we have vB staff member and TAZ Staff member - Wayne Luke - saying he won't use any of Brians vBA products (either the vBA Links or CMPS) or PP products; and vB Staff member and vBAdvanced staff member - Zachery - defending Brian and vBA.

We also have vB Staff employed as Staff on TAZ, a site that is supposed to be impartial to bulletin board applications. Maybe IPS Staff are employed on TAZ as well who knows…

Most definitely conflicting, and somewhat ‘perception damaging’ for Jelsoft.

As I said on vB.com, I do believe that when vB/Jelsoft Staff are employed as Staff on other vB based forums, whether they like it or not - they do actually represent vBulletin. If they don't wish to represent vBulletin/Jelsoft when employed as staff on other forums, then they ought to register as unbiased individuals (as indeed Wayne Luke does on Photopost forums)- without using their official vB Staff status and vB Staff avatars. Dangerous conflicts of interest can arise here for Jelsoft.

If the official stance is that Jelsoft does not officially recommend any of these products or www sites, then the use of vB Staff at them should not be allowed. By all means register as individuals with the same name et al, but do not use any influence gained as vB Staff in the process.

Thirdly there’s the issue of the potential damage this has done to the wonderful mod community at large. This has been debated and discussed many times in this thread alone, and so I won’t repeat what has already been said and enter into details. It is such a shame though that modders are now potentially going to be fearful of what might happen to them and their code, such that it could have a detrimental effect on the whole vB mod community. I bet IPS are finding this useful.

Now… let the debate continue…

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 04:17 AM

Which is exactly why a coder should care. Brian didnt set out to develop a product for sale, he fell into it and made money by accident, not design. This could happen to ANY coder. Personally, I think it would have been better if PP had offered to buy the product from brian early on, and given him a paid position. I would have made such an offer right after fling of the suit (if I was PP). That makes everyone happy (except the lawyers, who dont get to create bills) - Even the past PP customers who dislike PP, would probably give them another chance with brian running the VB gallery side.

Considering the lawsuit and what it went after, I don't believe PP is in any mood to hire Brian, or Brian would be interested in PP. I mean trying to go after personal assets, takes a lawsuit into "getting even" category.

Then also think about this: if you were sued like that would you want to work for the one who sued you? :eek:

Well, the deal is done, and this is a fact. PP wont be giving VBgallery back. However, there are alot of emotions going on and they should be allowed to be expressed. Hence why I dont close this thread. (actually I very very rarely close a thread-on any forum)

Some emotions, and a lot of ugly replies too. What's the point to continue to discredit, especially in the matter done if in fact it's a done deal? Such rulings are suppose to close the issue, but it doesn't. Settlements leave many unanswered questions (look what happened with Michael Jackson for one. Despite the settlement and the agreement that the accuser can go back an prosecute criminally at any time, the media and what not said Jackson just paid off the boy to hush him. If that clause wasn't in the settlement, sure, that would be true. But it was [which I think a lot of people don't know about, and the media doesn't even talk about]. So when Jackson did stand up this time and went to court, he was still guilty by this mob. Folks can believe Jackson is guilty as sin, but the courts are suppose to make that ruling, not the French Revolution style mob -- and that mob is suppose to READ the settlements carefully).

I see this again in Brian's case. The mob concludes Brian's guilty and goes to town on him over a settlement that's suppose to not cause this junk. But in the end it's good in a way, because the next time AEI sues someone, they'll be going to court and juries are more sympathic to defendents (especially Davids against Goliaths) -- and arrogance is their downfall too (they get too cocky and think their invulnerable with million dollar lawyers). Which plays wonderfully on TV (which again eats trash up, especially the arrogant CEO types).

Personally, if I was Brian, I would've fought to the very end on principle (especially after what happened to Jackson, and knowing how the internet lives on a diet of trash talk). But I also don't have a business, nor college tuition bills, and other money issues. If I did, it maybe color the outcome a lot. It's easier to say "I will do XYZ when ABC happens", but in reality it never unfolds that way.

WHERE? At vb.com? Please. My regular forums get very little play from the VB sites. Besides, what flack? Truth is, most people read for gossip value, and thats about it. If anything, I hope some people get the idea that here at VBW your able to discuss anything you like, as long as its intelligent and not a flame war type conversation, and not have to be banned or have threads closed left and right like many other forums.

People don't get involved unless there's something in it for themselves.

The reason I put my toe in this ice water has zero to do with the infighting itself (I don't have either product to care), it's the effect it has on the modding community. I'm an end-user and I'd hate to see mods dry up because some arrogant personally screwed CEO type comes in suing folks from style design, or of all things, replacement variable NAMES!! This lawsuit will curb others trying to built a better gallery and maybe other more commercially successful ones, and that's what stinks. Free flow of creativity squashed by someone who doesn't believe in sharing helps the entire community in the end.

Can you imagine what it would've been like if UBB sued Jelsoft over similiarity, that they once used UBB, and if they ever used any replacement variable remotely CLOSE to UBB's?

We wouldn't be here today.

Those who went to town on Brian are either ignorant of the consequences of lawsuits, or they careless of the overall impact of them on a mostly volunteer bunch. And the latter, IMO, is enough to say who is in fact the "good guys" in all of this. We may not know the guilt or innocence of Brian, but we do know what's good for the community -- lawsuits aren't, especially when no code lifting was found, and the compliant was so frivilous and mean in nature.

Chris

Joeychgo

11-25-2005, 04:34 AM

Considering the lawsuit and what it went after, I don't believe PP is in any mood to hire Brian, or Brian would be interested in PP. I mean trying to go after personal assets, takes a lawsuit into "getting even" category.

Then also think about this: if you were sued like that would you want to work for the one who sued you? :eek:

No no - I meant before, when this whole things started -- not now. IMO PP mishandled the whole thing from the get go - as in when they were about to file suit.

Those who went to town on Brian are either ignorant of the consequences of lawsuits, or they careless of the overall impact of them on a mostly volunteer bunch. And the latter, IMO, is enough to say who is in fact the "good guys" in all of this. We may not know the guilt or innocence of Brian, but we do know what's good for the community -- lawsuits aren't, especially when no code lifting was found, and the compliant was so frivilous and mean in nature.

Chris

Basically I agree. Notice they arent here for some reason?

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 05:21 AM

In their zest to defend, they made fools out of themselves. Butt kissers, affiliate types, even moderators came in and made a mockery not only of themselves, the company too.

Keystone Kops to the rescue!

Now all they can do is hunker down and hope the end-users don't consider their company another Wal-Mart or MS. Nothing is worse than end-users plain tired of paying higher and higher product fees because of lawsuits and the lifestyle of a CEO.

The Las Vegas remark has got to be one of the biggest PR disasters of them all. Jacks up the product fees, has a huge lawyer bill, but goes out to LV to play poker or look at pricey real estate??

Man, they have zero clue on PR!!!!

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 07:09 AM

Well I made a treatise style post, one that says it all and as bare as it gets:

http://www.best-board.com/showpost.php?p=11691&postcount=35

If the forum world is about all that junk, then I'm going to leave it for good. Not worth being tainted by it all, and be just another hamster.

The writing on the wall was in 2001, afterall.

Chris

minstrel

11-25-2005, 07:14 AM

You don't like hamsters? :confused:

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 08:06 AM

I said what I needed, because it needed to be said.

As for the hamster remark: when will the hamsters get off the wheel, let alone their cage? The system is setup for diminishing returns. Smart hamsters get off the wheel, get out of their cage and build their own home away from pitfalls. ;)

Chris

Joeychgo

11-25-2005, 08:12 AM

shuolda posted it here

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 08:22 AM

I was just answering TMM's post over there, and while doing it, just let it all out. Have a lot of thoughts that just can't get air time on forums (because they get locked or removed). I'm a very independent poster and say it like it is, and folks will agree or disagree, but what matters you can and they can as well.

Chris

theMusicMan

11-25-2005, 08:23 AM

Ok, here's further proof that thesandman and TAZ are employing underhanded tactics and seem to be receiving favourable treatment on vB.com. I posted a question to him earlier in a thread over there which has now been removed and the thread closed. Here's the post I made;

http://img273.imageshack.us/img273/9537/tazarticles8je.png

Anyone see anything wrong with that? I have asked vB Staff why my post was removed.

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 08:29 AM

TMM, don't know but when The Sandman posts such things they are removed. His post about the interview with Ikonboard, was also removed. So it maybe something else entirely -- maybe they don't want TAZ promoted at vB now.

Can't say, but if that's 2 threads removed, that can be a reason.

ADDED: Oops, meant to say locked, not removed. Don't want to give the impression the posts don't exist anymore. The Ikonboard thread was locked and floated down the list quick (took a search to find it again). If you have access to TAZ, check the Ikonboard review thread and you can see my little comment about it, too.

Chris

theMusicMan

11-25-2005, 08:41 AM

Chris

I have no doubt whatsoever about why my posts were removed, or why his thread was locked. I only want people to understand that the mission statement posted for TAZ is entirely false and hypocritical. He does not do what he says he will do within that mission statement - it is as simple as that.

You can see by what I said in my post that nothing in it was inflamatory or insulting in any way whatsoever - to those who know no difference. However, to those who do know, the very fact that it has been removed says it all.

He also obviously doesn't want people to know that only 78 people out of a membership of over 6,000 actually voted on the article contests. People also need to be aware that TAZ provided no prizes for their contest and freeloaded them all from volunteers such as our excellent smacklan and kevin. News eh!

gprime

11-25-2005, 08:47 AM

Joeychgo

11-25-2005, 08:49 AM

You guys do know there are other topics on this forum right? :D

gprime

11-25-2005, 08:51 AM

You guys do know there are other topics on this forum right? :D

Really? :eek:

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 10:11 AM

Chris

I have no doubt whatsoever about why my posts were removed, or why his thread was locked. I only want people to understand that the mission statement posted for TAZ is entirely false and hypocritical. He does not do what he says he will do within that mission statement - it is as simple as that.

Put up a blog and let it be known. And get Yahoo to feature it too. ;)

Who knows CNN may have a reason to post about it...like when another teenager commits suicide who posted at XYZ forum, and all the flack it can produce in the media. It's sad, but negative news will get the airplay.

BTW, went back to check: the thread in question is removed. Second thread with TAZ content, and it's gone. So maybe, TMM, maybe there's some tift there beyond just practices.

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 10:12 AM

You guys do know there are other topics on this forum right? :D

Really?

Want another tub of popcorn. ;)

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 10:23 AM

Oh, well another thread's looking to be locked. <sigh>

TMM, what's this thing about PP being a TAZ sponsor? Seems to have stirred another hornet's nest.

Chris

theMusicMan

11-25-2005, 10:45 AM

Oh, well another thread's looking to be locked. <sigh>

TMM, what's this thing about PP being a TAZ sponsor? Seems to have stirred another hornet's nest.

ChrisReally... nothing sinister, I read somewhere that PP sponsors TAZ via a banner or some form of promotion. Is this not the case? and where's the hornets nest this has stirred Chris please? I'd like to have a peek if I have started something unintentionally...:0

EDIT: the thread is still there on vB.com - http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=911934#post911934

ChrisLM2001

11-25-2005, 11:15 AM

On that thread, because of what occurred after posting about it. Then the reminder to "stay on topic".

Oh, Viper posted. Why am I not surprised?

Chris

AnthonyCea

11-25-2005, 07:15 PM

You guys do know there are other topics on this forum right? :D

Really Joey, I thought we could discuss everything in this thread!

Have you guys seen the latest Shakira video:confused:

http://www.shakiramedia.com/index.php?page=popup&id=775&rate=350

It will rock your little world:eek:

mastermind

11-26-2005, 01:44 AM

ManagerJosh

11-26-2005, 02:42 AM

In all honesty, I'd like to see the coders bust out the big guns and deliver a final verdict against Brian or Scott.

Joeychgo

11-26-2005, 02:47 AM

SO far - all I have heard from coders isa that comparing the present versions of both scripts, there is NOTHING the same.

I would like someone to come forward and make the case for Photopost FACTUALLY - with code comparisons and other EVIDENCE.

ManagerJosh

11-26-2005, 04:19 AM

ChrisLM2001

11-26-2005, 05:35 AM

In all honesty, I'd like to see the coders bust out the big guns and deliver a final verdict against Brian or Scott.

Yep, that would be a good to see, and justice prevails.

Chris

ChrisLM2001

11-26-2005, 06:07 AM

FYI -

If anyone is interested, here is another situation: the SugarCRM vs. vtiger.com at http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=11

This thread shows the accusations SugarCRM levied against vtiger.com. Maybe some info may be useful in this situation with vbag. Just another resource.

NOTE: I wasn't sure if I should've started another thread. I just want to make sure those who are monitoring this saga sees this, too for its info content. I am not trying to get off topic.

Thanks for the link. That was a good read, and one that shows passion and allows public participation. Both sides defended themselves, and the coders came in and gave their 2 cents (especially like the 2nd to the last post, which kind of recapped it all to better understand -- also has some kernals of truth about the conflicts of writing code for free, yet still trying to make a living as a coder).

Wish this case was addressed like that thread. Would've been a lot less nasty.

Chris

ManagerJosh

11-26-2005, 04:17 PM

Perhaps we as a community should file a class-action lawsuit against AEI for fraud and deception to its vBa Gallery License Holiders :p

ChrisLM2001

11-26-2005, 05:11 PM

Don't think the community will be interested in a lawsuit -- especially 15 year-olds (well maybe they would, but the 30 year-old with a mortgage isn't so inclined). ;)

Chris

ManagerJosh

11-27-2005, 02:01 AM

Don't think the community will be interested in a lawsuit -- especially 15 year-olds (well maybe they would, but the 30 year-old with a mortgage isn't so inclined). ;)

Chris
That's the beauty of a class-action lawsuit. If a judge finds enough plantiffs who are willing to go against the defendent (AEI), then we don't have to pay all that much to get what we need from AEI :p

gprime

11-27-2005, 06:38 AM

ChrisLM2001

11-27-2005, 08:11 AM

That's the beauty of a class-action lawsuit. If a judge finds enough plantiffs who are willing to go against the defendent (AEI), then we don't have to pay all that much to get what we need from AEI :p

It'll just be another spiteful lawsuit, and folks would become what they claim to dislike in AEI's approach to Purplanet.

If AEI does make lawsuits a habit and it hurts mods being made by the vB community due to it (like doing the same to another gallery developer from the vB community), yes, that might be a legitmate use of one.

But until that occurs, this issue is settled the old fashion way -- with folks pocketbooks. Which is much better way to handle these situations than some legal settlement, anyway.

Chris

ManagerJosh

11-27-2005, 10:44 AM

But there are no grounds upon which to bring about a class action lawsuit.
If AEI can bring bogus claims and charges to court, we may certainly be able to do something similar.

Or...we could simply launch a photopostsucks.com site :D...bad publicity & press are usually what kills :)

gprime

11-27-2005, 03:24 PM

If AEI can bring bogus claims and charges to court, we may certainly be able to do something similar.

Or...we could simply launch a photopostsucks.com site :D...bad publicity & press are usually what kills :)

1) Photopostsucks.com is already owned by James.
2) They've already had a hailstorm of bad PR. But they have enough clients that it would be less than fruitful.

Noppid

11-27-2005, 03:44 PM

1) Photopostsucks.com is already owned by James.
2) They've already had a hailstorm of bad PR. But they have enough clients that it would be less than fruitful.

That's right, don't start trouble.

The questions that this thread was started based on users in the community asking have been answered. The rest will play out according to the market.

ChrisLM2001

11-27-2005, 03:48 PM

Can always setup a site like this to get the message out...

http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/

That's a good way to practice free speech, and not get threads locked too. Just make sure to keep libelous and trade secrets off of it, and it should be safe to have (as those 2 points can get it shut down royally and a person sued).

There are alternatives to lawsuits that don't make the supporters look like a mob, get their viewpoint out, and give an outlet for AEI to see what actual complaints they have, and can resolve but not willing (that alone is bad enough PR). If it ever does go to court, everyone can also be clean: the site wasn't setup to "get even" but an outlet about complaints of a company's service, and it's conduct with other competitors.

Point is not to think payback is the answer. It isn't, as it'll be a hollow victory, where the victim(s) become the abuser.

Chris

guttormson

12-29-2005, 03:30 PM

Wow... I just found out about this today. :(

I used to be a Photopost owner until I found vbgallery because it was a better product for less money. Even then I couldn't buy vbgallery for a couple of my non-profit boards because of the cost (I realize it was only $60).

When I found vbgallery I was so excited! what an awesome product! I still have it running on one of my sites and I love it!

But to hear all this.... is just sad. :( What the Photopost folks don't seem to get is that galleries are not core to a forum and usually you can do without them (especially with VB's image attachment features) therefore spending over $75 for a gallery is not gonna happen for most of us.

Some folks want to make a million by selling a million products for a dollar. Others, want to sell one product for a million.

I have had nothing but pleasure working with the vbadvanced folks therefore I will not ever buy another Photopost product.

not a gopher

01-09-2006, 02:51 AM

Wow ..my poor 56K chugged away as links to here and there were tossed at me... interesting read, very informative.
Im happy to see that factual posts aren’t jus-cause for ban or deletion at this web forum.
Too many times ive seen the monetary value of a sponsor/banner exceed the value of a customer. And in the end, its the customers that ultimately dictates if the product is worth it or not, either they purchase or don’t.

I have purchased P.P. and as a result was so displeased i went out and purchased VBG which met all my needs (well, almost *insert distasteful comment in here*) . Then i was made aware of the business transaction that took place where ownership of VbG was surrendered…..

I, like surely many other VbG license holders feel displaced. My forums run VbG. PP sits burnt to cd and will never be used again, if i can sell the license, perfect. But I feel like ive had the wool pulled over my eyes. I showed up at the forums and everything was gone, and I was told to head “back over there”..
I will not support PP or VbG any further. I will look for other means of hosting images, be it Noppids solution or some future alternative.
My forums can make do without the galleries. My largest forum of 6000+ members doesn’t have a gallery but runs VbGarage. I have yet to have a member ask for a Gallery. Vb’s built in attachment feature seems to please everyone, so worst case scenario I’ll run with that…
……hrmmm.. is there a hack for multi image attachments which would tile the thumbs….. 

The tactics used in this legal case remind me much of how the insurance industry handles accident victims. It’s unreal. But the fact that Brian got worked over, does it matter? The internet has a tendency for 'forget' and 'forgive' very quickly. Only a few stubborn people who have different views will be stead fast in their claims to NOT support the aggressors.

It just sucks that we all work hard for our money, purchase a product we feel is complementing to our task or goal, and then get forced to return to the company we ran away from.

In the end, we all have choices…we all know this.. ill stick with what works and what is free. I have yet to start carting the wheel barrows of cash from the forums to the bank as of yet…lol..and i will pitch in what i can when i can...