vBa Gallery sold to PhotoPost. Users await support and code.

Brian of vBadvanced (http://www.vbadvanced.com/) has announced in this post (http://www.vbadvanced.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12926) on the vBadvanced web site that vBadvanced Gallery has been sold to PhotoPost. This seems to be leaving many users of the software asking questions like... How will the vBadvanced gallery be supported and where? When will new code be available and how will it be delivered? How much will vBadvanced Gallery cost under PhotoPost ownership? Is this a move to monopolize the vBulletin photo gallery market and jack up prices?

These and many other questions are being discussed in this thread (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101217) on vbulletin.org. If you are a vBadvanced gallery owner, you may want to follow this discussion.

As to the monopolize the vBulletin Photo Gallery market question, as the author and supporter of vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/), I think not!

vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) is installed on a large number of sites and sales are strong. The feedback from admins and users has been very positive and encouraging. Support is being provided in a timely fashion.

If your need a good inexpensive photo gallery for vbulletin (http://www.cpurigs.com/) 3.5, check out vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/)!

By Brian at vBAdvanced
What does this mean for vBadvanced?
We would like to assure our customers that this change only pertains to vBadvanced Gallery and does not affect our company as a whole, or any of our other products. We will continue about our business here as normal, and if anything, this will give us more time to concentrate on our existing CMPS and Links Directory products, plus give us more time to create new products.

So, we should be ok. Ive never been impressed with Photopost or vBGallery - Im quite happy with what youve accomplished with vB Picgallery Noppid. You should be quite proud of it.


By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

So it seems the pricing will go up before long, and probably double.

What struck me is the arrogance and defensiveness displayed by ScottW23 in that thread. Maybe im taking it a bit critical, and it is just my opinion, but what im reading is not good for photopost's image IMO.

The other interesting thing is that all these threads are being closed. Apparantly, vB owners arent suppose to discuss this openly. Well, feel free to discuss it here folks! I wont be closing this thread.

By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

The current PhotoPost pricing model requires a $39.00 Renew Members Area Access fee every year as well.

vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) is currently available for a $20.00 one time donation. If you used to use vBGarage for vBulletin 3.0.x, you can upgrade to vBPicGallery on vBulletin 3.5.x!

i own 3 vba galleries and 2 pp galleries..
i am very curious to see what will happen...
most say they will remain separate...
i disagree..
i think both of them should be merged to make one super vb gallery...
am i the only one that feels this way?
:wave:

I really find this ownership change upsetting. I used both PhotoPost in the past and I must say it wasn't very happy with it. I was looking into vBa Gallery but now that it's under this new ownership I'm going to look into other options. I was looking at vBPicGallery a while ago, but it wasn't released yet, but now that it is I think i'm going to go for that gallery. I truely think vBPicGallery is going to become large because of this, just from looking at current vBa Gallery users, they aren't very happy about the change.

Maybe vBPicGallery could make a converter from the lastest version of vBa Gallery (before the ownership changes) to vBPicGallery if there isn't one already.

Now I think as a stand alone, PhotoPost is good, but when it comes to intergration I personally thought it was poor.

Edit: Added something.

I have worked with Brian of vBadvanced in the past. He is extremely professional, hardworking, and quite possibly the best vBulletin hacker out there. I have no doubt that his decision did not come easily and that he had his customers in mind when making the final decision. His incredible level of support has showcased just how much he cares about his customers and their satisfaction. Let's hope PhotoPost can support the product as well as he did. Otherwise i'll be looking forward to additions to Noppid's script.

Thank you both for the kind words about vBPicGallery, we appreciate it!

As soon as I get the table structure of vBadvanced gallery, I will be creating a converter to vBPicGallery. This should happen pretty quickly.

If anyone has suggestions for the converter or vBPicGallery, please let us hear them.

Thank you.

while i applaud your efforts, i'm more apt to stick with the people who have had the most research and development completed personally, due to the number of users they have...
i grew with brian, it sucked...
having to find and reports bugs every day, then to wait for a fix...
i am hoping that pp will be more stable on my large volume forums..
users with smaller traffic need not worry about these things as much...

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:
I can fully understand that some of our customers are upset, and I can understand the reasons for this. Our intent was never to market something and sell it to a third party. That has never been our intention, and never will be. Something happened beyond our control in regards to the vbadvanced gallery. I wish I could disclose the details of what transpired, but legally I cannot provide any answer. I am waiting to hear back from my attorney tomorrow, at which point I will see what exactly I am allowed to disclose and I will do my best to fully answer (to my ability) any questions/concerns our customers my have. Again, I deeply apologize for any inconvience this may have caused any of our customers.


What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-

while i applaud your efforts, i'm more apt to stick with the people who have had the most research and development completed personally, due to the number of users they have...
i grew with brian, it sucked...
having to find and reports bugs every day, then to wait for a fix...
i am hoping that pp will be more stable on my large volume forums..
users with smaller traffic need not worry about these things as much...

Don't be fooled by the size of www.cpurigs.com. vBPicGallery in on several large forums with good usage of the vBPicGallery occuring. We have not had any issues. Joe will vouch for this.

I'm sure my 5 Years experience with vBulletin, personally and as the admin of about 50 vB sites over the years, and my 22 years as a computer professional rate as qualified to do R&D.

Look at my work on vB.org for free. You will see I fix my code if it breaks in a very timely fashion with an actual means to an end. vBGarage 4.1.0 has required zero updates in a long time to mention one. :)

Yes Noppid jumps right on any issues or bugs

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:



What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-
From my understanding, Brian's code was made from scratch, so I couldn't picture anything as far as legal matters goes. It could be personal reasons and he felt a paid products that large should be handed over to someone else. I really don't think we'll truely know the reason behind it.

I wonder something......

Brian posted this on vbadvanced:



What could have happened that was beyond brian's control? SOme kind of legal action maybe? VBA Gallery always looked a bit like photopost to me - could there have been some kind of legal action that forced this move?

-

The fact that this transaction had such a strict Non-Disclosure Agreement attached does not bode well for the future IMO.

i am still learning about vb and all of it's offspring and i've had nothing but a nightmare on my hands to date...so i am skeptical to start looking into newer ventures...i'll keep an eye on this issue for a while and see what happens...all i want is a gallery that works and works good and when i ask for tech support, i don't get treated like a red headed step child...

Noppid is great for support - TRUST ME.

As far as quality - here are my galleries: Pretty good sized, never a problem.


Lincoln vs Cadillac (http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/vbpicgallery.php)

A-Body Mopar (http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/vbgarage.php) (not converted to 3.5 yet)

Mitsubishi Forum (http://www.team-2g.com/mitsubishi-eclipse/vbpicgallery.php)

i am still learning about vb and all of it's offspring and i've had nothing but a nightmare on my hands to date...so i am skeptical to start looking into newer ventures...i'll keep an eye on this issue for a while and see what happens...all i want is a gallery that works and works good and when i ask for tech support, i don't get treated like a red headed step child...

Well we'd appreciate being in the back of your mind. There are alot of decisions made running a forum and thinking them through and doing the research is worth the effort.

Visit my support forum for vBPicGallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) and FREEBS (http://www.cpurigs.com/). That will show you in fact how responsive we are to our software users as well as our ability to respond to code necessities.

Thanks!

The potential legal aspect has me quite interested and curious.

Brian at vBadvanced responded to my query by saying: "The "bolded part" is public record."

What in the world is going on? Im also wondering why everyone seems so concerned about all of us 'speculating' about what has happened and what photopost will or wont do with it.

i'm sure you rule bro...not saying you don't...and i am sure you are on top of things...all i'm saying is...let's see what happens once the dust settles...then i'll investigate...right now, i have all my free time used up just reading all the crap about this takeover...lol

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...

brian's already threatend to sue me for telling my horror stories of dealing with him...
i could care less though, sue me...good luck pal.
i'll tell my story to a thousand more people if they ask me..
he should have handled his business much better, in my opinion...

noppid, if you have time for custom work, maybe you can help me out..
webmaster@fourtwenty.com if you do.

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...




Really!!!!!!!!!!????????? Tell us more!

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...


wow I never knew about that. I hope nothing happens with the other products.

Its sounding more and more like that is the case. I wonder if Brian LOST the program in some kind of legal action. If true, I know I wont be a photopost customer EVER.

this is what brian told me on 12/14/2004

Wow... That stuff about PP sucks. I've had my fair share of problems with them in the past from them threatening to sue me because I owned a copy of PP over 2 years ago, so because of that they think I had to have copied their code. I tried talking to them thinking they would be rational, but the things they were saying were completely ridiculous. I finally turned things over to my attorney and haven't heard a thing since. At least I can promise you that your experience with vBa products/support/etc will be nothing like that. :)

excuse my french but...
bull****ing****.

i know pp was suing vba for the gallery...
maybe they won...who knows.
from brian's actions closing all threads and whatnot, probably so...
we'll soon find out i'm sure...


I have some folks with access to anything that would be disclosed about the case publically called upon to get any such info.

So..........the plot thickens

here is his attorney's information, he showed me about 5 times...

Dan R. Gresham
C.O. Thomas, Kayden, Horstemeyer, & Risley LLP
100 Galleria Parkway, NW Suite 1750
Atlanta, GA 30339-5948
http://tkhr.com

Wow, I would be interested to know the whole story on this. Guess im looking for court documents on monday

when i ask for tech support, i don't get treated like a red headed step child...
I'm assuming that you're NOT actually a red-headed step-child?

Let me just throw in my personal character reference for noppid. Over the years, one meets a lot of people and a few stand out as actually living principles of integrity and fair play. Noppid is one of those people.

I have nothing to lose or gain by saying this. I don't even own a copy of vBulletin yet, let alone a vB gallery -- until 3.5, there were a number of things I didn't even LIKE about vBulletin. I have no financial stake in any of these products whatsoever. But sometimes it's better to go with the individual rather than the product.

...my 2 cents (5 cents Canadian).

well, all i have to say is...

i have 4 vb forums, 3 vba galleries, 2 pp galleries, 2 vba links, 3 vba cmps
portals...
all running vb 3.51 and latest versions of all scripts...

http://www.420times.com
http://www.420girls.com
http://www.fourtwenty.com
http://www.nothingface.com

i have just hired this great man to do my custom work...
we will see what happens..
my full report soon...;)

thanks guys!

Thank you for the kind words minstrel. I really appreciate it!

I'm good at what I do and not ashamed to pass on what is not within my capabilities. I appreciate all opportunities.

Guess im looking for court documents on monday
Exactly what I was thinking :D I can't wait to see this

this is what brian told me on 12/14/2004

Wow... That stuff about PP sucks. I've had my fair share of problems with them in the past from them threatening to sue me because I owned a copy of PP over 2 years ago, so because of that they think I had to have copied their code. I tried talking to them thinking they would be rational, but the things they were saying were completely ridiculous. I finally turned things over to my attorney and haven't heard a thing since. At least I can promise you that your experience with vBa products/support/etc will be nothing like that. :)

excuse my french but...
bull****ing****.
Thanks for this information 420

Exactly what I was thinking :D I can't wait to see this



Yeah - this is already getting very interesting. I like VBA - although the gallery never fit my needs - the links program and the cmps program are here on this forum. Im actually kind of irritated that PP may have done just what I fear they did.

this is what brian told me on 12/14/2004

Wow... That stuff about PP sucks. I've had my fair share of problems with them in the past from them threatening to sue me because I owned a copy of PP over 2 years ago, so because of that they think I had to have copied their code. I tried talking to them thinking they would be rational, but the things they were saying were completely ridiculous. I finally turned things over to my attorney and haven't heard a thing since. At least I can promise you that your experience with vBa products/support/etc will be nothing like that. :)

excuse my french but...
bull****ing****.
:confused:

I'm not sure what part of this you think is BS, 420.

I don't know the story here and I'm not disputing your understanding of the facts but what you posted looks like this guy Brian was threatened with copyright infringement litigation and backed off, leaving things to the lawyers. Given the subsequent turn of events, it would seem likely that he lost the fight -- OR gave it up and settled out of court.

Or are you suggesting this is just smokescreen and that he sold out for profit, dumping his customers in the process?

No, im thinking he lost in court, due to the abruptness of all this. Photopost is being very evasive about this as well

I'm really disappointed by this but that's often the way business goes.

FWIW I just discovered WSN Gallery (http://scripts.webmastersite.net/wsngallery/) which includes vB integration.

That furthers my statement that PhotoPost could not leverage the vBulletin Photo Gallery (http://www.cpurigs.com/) market buy buying this product out. There is competition.

So it's unlikely to me that Brian took the money and ran. I think it's more likely he did the best he could with whatever opportunities he had.

I think it's more likely he did the best he could with whatever opportunities he had.



That would be my guess.

I wonder if the price goes up, will current owners be grandfathered in? Or will they get a coupon and have to pay more to be up to date license wise?

It is obvious that photopost and Brian had some legal problems thats why he cannot tell anything about it.
I never wanted to work with Photopost and i hope i won't be. As long as vba gallery works with vBulletin and will not need an update i will not upgrade it to Photopost vbGallery because i even dont want to give a link back to them from my site.

What i am wondering is we all know Brian as he is a good vb coder and a tursted person , why he had the legal status. The code with vba gallery and photopost is different so how can he loose ? Is it only the interfrance ? If so all paid boards that came after vBulletin must be closed also.

I wonder if the price goes up, will current owners be grandfathered in? Or will they get a coupon and have to pay more to be up to date license wise?

This is something i am also wondering. I had my license until february 2006 and what will happen then. When i purchase vba gallery renewing was 20 or 30 $ i dont remember but i ma sure $ eye photopost people will increase this price which they will not get it from me. But immediately they scripts prices increased.

But immediately they scripts prices increased.
Glad I'm not the only person that noticed that.
The 'sale price' of every script was raised $20

I'll be waiving the vbadvanced.com copyright notice as long as I can get away with it :D

Well, I would wonder if photopost would be lookng to recoup some legal expenses from current vbgallery owners

heh, who knows. at this point we need some real evidence or this thread will get to the point we're saying Brian needed to fund a rocket mission to the moon in order to place a vba flag next to the USA one.

heh, who knows. at this point we need some real evidence or this thread will get to the point we're saying Brian needed to fund a rocket mission to the moon in order to place a vba flag next to the USA one.

Has he posted recently?

Whatever the case, I wish him well. He puts out good work.

heh, who knows. at this point we need some real evidence or this thread will get to the point we're saying Brian needed to fund a rocket mission to the moon in order to place a vba flag next to the USA one.


Kool! Got pics yet? :D


Photopost is being just as secretive about things - the truth will come out......sooner or later

Oh man, this sucks :(
I hope customers that can afford it sue PP
They are terrible... poor Brian... :(

Well, we dont know what transpired yet. I will say, I dont think its good PR for photo post not to be straight forward about all this and let everyone know what the deal is.

ΤΗΕΥ SUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!
I wish Brian can buy the Gallery back... Is there a chance for it? Even 1%?
Let me hope! :(

ΤΗΕΥ SUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!
I wish Brian can buy the Gallery back... Is there a chance for it? Even 1%?
Let me hope! :(


I would say... No. Unfortunately. I doubt PP would give up the script under ANY circumstances.

Well then I hope that company gets bankruptcy and others buy all their scripts :(

you mean photopost?

you mean photopost?
I'm sure he does. ;)

Tis a sad day for VBAdvanced gallery users....

I just hope this will not resualt in raised prices and not to mention raising the renew subscription...

I'm sure he does. ;)
Of course I mean photopost!!! I like vbadvanced a lot, I would never say something bad about them or Brian! Brian rocks! He has awsome support and wonderful hacks. :)

Oh and btw it's SHE not HE ;) I'm not male!

Tis a sad day for VBAdvanced gallery users....

I just hope this will not resualt in raised prices and not to mention raising the renew subscription...
Of course they will raise their prices, they already did for their older products to leave room for vbGallery's price to raise. :(
These guys suck, they are so money oriented that it makes me sick.

Of course they will raise their prices, they already did for their older products to leave room for vbGallery's price to raise. :(
These guys suck, they are so money oriented that it makes me sick.


Well, I dont fault them for being money orientated, this is a business, and businesses are about money.

However, in the same breath, from what I ahve seen so far, they arent very professional in my opinion. For example:


Yes, though it is 5am now and I have not yet been to bed. I've been up all day Sunday and Monday morning working on this - I'd like a few hours of sleep, please. We will be able to sell, deliver, and support PhotoPost vBGallery by the end of the day, Monday. (ScottW is the photopost administrator, this was posted on the photopost forum)



Seems to me that had he planned this better, maybe he wouldnt have these problems. But thats just my opinion. (Gotta be careful, I dont wanna get sued :D)
I dont know the full story yet, but so far, it seems like this whole thing has been handled poorly and in a very disorganized fashion. Again, just my opinion.

Interesting read indeed...

So... for present owners and users of the vBAdvanced Gallery - how do we stand for removing the Powered by vBAdvanced Gallery phrase text as it is no longer powered by vBA Gallery?

Not sure. I am sure photopost will let you know - probably will require you to update the software to include their copyright information.

Well, I dont fault them for being money orientated, this is a business, and businesses are about money.


Yes but I didn't get that feeling with vbadvanced! These PP guys are more than they should!

What this world needs is some tort reform. Too many people suing too many people -- and those people can't afford to defend themselves. I have two php Photoposts licenses and on php Classified license -- and I can tell you they have threatened legal action for having two copies in the same domain (one was a test sub domain).

Nopid -- sleep with one eye open. Big fish have a tendancy of swallowing small fish. If they think you'll rollover if sued for a "Look & Feel" violation -- they might do it. You might win -- but it might cost you $500,000 to win.

Trust me on this -- I've fought many wrongful suites (I'm $180,000 in legal fees on one right now -- and it is being appealed) and you never get those attorney fees back when you win.

so how do you do the court records lookup?

also.. it appears photopost is merging databases now.

sleep with one eye open
Now you've got me singing that song in my head...

sleep with one eye open
hugging your pillow tight
exit light

Interesting read indeed...

So... for present owners and users of the vBAdvanced Gallery - how do we stand for removing the Powered by vBAdvanced Gallery phrase text as it is no longer powered by vBA Gallery?John, here's the official answer on that one... (3rd bolded title down)

http://www.photopost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119665

Ok, well I have more research to do - but here is what I know as of now.

Photopost sued Brian. To settle the lawsuit, Brian had to give them the Gallery script.

Part of the settlement agreement included a gag order on Brian, where he cannot reveal any details of the settlement.

I am still trying to get my hands on the official court documents -

-

good work. we have multiple people trying to get documents now that I know of.. although I can't mention the others here

Well this definately is interesting to say the least...

Unfortunately if it turns out to be true, Brian must be gutted; Perhaps he can create another Gallery? ;)

Chris

Ok, well I have more research to do - but here is what I know as of now.

Photopost sued Brian. To settle the lawsuit, Brian had to give them the Gallery script.

Part of the settlement agreement included a gag order on Brian, where he cannot reveal any details of the settlement.

I am still trying to get my hands on the official court documents -

-

Good to know. At first I was upset at Brian because I really wanted to buy vba gallery especially with his great support, but after reading this I feel rather sympathetic. While it is totally within AEI's rights to implement such hostile business strategies, it only serves to further their image as a low quality, underhanded company with poor customer relations and purely financial motivations.

Good to know. At first I was upset at Brian because I really wanted to buy vba gallery especially with his great support, but after reading this I feel rather sympathetic. While it is totally within AEI's rights to implement such hostile business strategies, it only serves to further their image as a low quality, underhanded company with poor customer relations and purely financial motivations.

My opinions are similar.

Why didn't Brian go to court if he wrote the script from scratch ? This is i am wondering write now.

There are several reasons why, and I'm going to point out the most obvious: cost...

Court cases cost money and it would probably have been more cost than it was worth for Brian to contest it...

Chris

There are several reasons why, and I'm going to point out the most obvious: cost...

Court cases cost money and it would probably have been more cost than it was worth for Brian to contest it...

Chris
I am not sure about the laws in USA but in Turkey if someone sues you with something like this and they loose you can sue them back. I think it is something similar in USA and maybe way better then Turkey.

John, here's the official answer on that one... (3rd bolded title down)

http://www.photopost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119665Excellent.. thanks Kev... appreciated.

I am not sure about the laws in USA but in Turkey if someone sues you with something like this and they loose you can sue them back. I think it is something similar in USA and maybe way better then Turkey.

Nope - unless the case is totally without merit (a rarity), you bear your own costs of defense.

A case like this could have run brian $10k or more to defend at trial. He still could have lost.

Nope - unless the case is totally without merit (a rarity), you bear your own costs of defense.

A case like this could have run brian $10k or more to defend at trial. He still could have lost.
That is nonsense. In Turkey if someone sue's you and loose in the court they have to cover all your court lawyer expenses and in the other hand if you loose you have to cover other parties expenses :) But i believe the system in USA is build just to make lawyers rich. I know how expensive thay are as i dealt with them previously.

That is nonsense. In Turkey if someone sue's you and loose in the court they have to cover all your court lawyer expenses and in the other hand if you loose you have to cover other parties expenses :) But i believe the system in USA is build just to make lawyers rich. I know how expensive thay are as i dealt with them previously.


Be that as it may - it s what it is.

Well, maybe he could have counter-sued for slander and defamation of character to make back his costs.

the thing I wonder about now is the legality of mods on the new gallery. Under the new License Agreement you agree to some odd things

1. they can use your domain/site name in promotional materials without any notice.
2. PhotoPost source code may be altered (at the owners risk),
but the software (altered or otherwise) may not be distributed to entities
beyond the license holder without the explicit written permission of All Enthusiast, Inc.
So, do mods count as the software?? who knows.

3. you authorize them to put callhomes in the software itself (photopost already contains one on install)

I'm not sure I want to agree to all that:mad:

You don't have to... but you then won't be able to download any updated files. If you keep your current version intact as-is, leave well alone and you won't have any call homes. When you download the latest version you effectively agree to their terms, so don't download it.

For folks who don't understand legalese, and I won't go and say PP did this, but Brian does have an outlet, and it's called an anti-SLAPP suit.

SLAPP suits are often brought against entities that a suer knows can't afford the long drawn out course of a lawsuit (this is well known how Church of Scientology goes after it's victims). But since this was filed in CA, that state has better anti-SLAPP protections. Brian can very much counter-sue, especially if he can provide evidence of a HISTORY of such lawsuits with other competitors.

I wish there wasn't a gag order, since we won't know if Brian even got that much legal advice. :(

But either way I signed up to say the above and this: I don't like what happened to Brian, and especially to a modder in the community who made a good extension for vB users. To be treated like this stinks. I hope he persues some legal recourse, because no doubt, he'll be targeted again -- as if he can back out once some greedy company will do it again.

Chris

It's looking more and more very bad if this is true.
I only ask, why doesn't Brian talked about this situation before it was coming to late for it?
If he would have talked about it earlier that pp want to get his gallery by a lawsuit maybe it wouldn't be happened as it now happened because there would have been a big protest and assistance from the vba and vb community to help him out of this situation.
Another question for me, if it is as it is looking now, why do some ppl who worked for Brian before do so now for the "devil" ?

look what I found..

Well, Brian may gagged by his settlement, but I'm guessing it doesn't specificly prevent me from posting public information:

On 7-5-2005 All Enthusiast, Inc. filed suit against Brian Gunter & Plurplanet, Inc. in US District Court - Northern District of California, case number 30502733.

I'll have to wait a couple of days for my PACER password before I can get the actual text of the suit, but when I do I'll be posting it on multiple boards.

If anyone already has PACER access, please feel free to let us know.

Boycott +1

Interestingly, there is a flood of closed threads across a variety of boards, all on this subject. Alot of seemingly upset vBgallery owners floating around.

look what I found..

Boycott +1



I could find nothing on pacer....

One thing you'll learn about marketing: for every 1 person who dislikes a product, they'll tell an average of 10 others, who'll tell 10 others and it goes from there. It's why you try so hard to keep the customers you have and keep them happy. A little effort in customer relations can go a long way to make a product/company grow -- skimp there the product/company sinks (as customers aren't going to take lip, especially if they're paying for a product).

Sue a company just out of greed, will often sink the suer -- as it looks ugly and vengeful. At least they could allow Brian to air his feelings or good will, that would've made the transition a lot less rocky.

Now it's about boycotts and "don't buy PP because they did this..."

The PR is rotten -- this isn't open source, folks are paying money for these products and expect service (not watching their mod community targetted).

Chris

Well, maybe he could have counter-sued for slander and defamation of character to make back his costs.


BTW - I have it on good authority that Brian had already spent almost $30,000 in attorneys fees on this case. It still hadnt gone to trial yet.

Hate to say this: that's quite cheap. SLAPP type suits can get in the $$$$$$ to $$$$$$$$ range.

One case I know, the price tag was in the $5,000,000 range with a network carrier.

It's why folks want anti-SLAPP protection (and can ask for it in court, too).

Chris

But this action was in Federal Court, I dont know what slapp protecton they have.

In the case between New.net, Inc v. Lavasoft [Federal Court]...

http://www.casp.net/newnet-1.html


B. THE SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE DOES NOT VIOLATE THE ERIE DOCTRINE

Defendant properly directs its anti-SLAPP motion only to the pendant state law claims set out in the Complaint. Because Erie R.R. Co. v. Tompkins, 304 U.S. 64, 58 S.Ct. 817, 82 L.Ed. 1188 (1938), which was initially formulated in diversity cases, applies as well to pendant state law claims in federal question cases, see Nathan v. Boeing Co., 116 F.3d 422, 423 (9th Cir.1997), the Court must first consider whether to apply this unique state procedure in this action. That determination turns on whether application of the state procedural rule would result in a "direct collision" with a Federal Rule of Civil Procedure. Walker v. Armco Steel Corp., 446 U.S. 740, 749-50, 100 S.Ct. 1978, 64 L.Ed.2d 659 (1980). Where no such collision exists, application of the state rule should be applied to accomplish the "twin aims" of the Erie principle -- the discouragement of forum shopping and the equitable administration of the laws. Hanna v. Plumer, 380 U.S. 460, 468, 85 S.Ct. 1136, 14 L.Ed.2d 8 (1965).

This circuit has addressed the applicability of the anti-SLAPP statute in federal question cases in United States v. Lockheed Missiles & Space Co., Inc., 190 F.3d 963, 970-73 (9th Cir.1999), in which the Court concluded that subsections (b) and (c) of the anti-SLAPP statute may be applied to pendant state law claims without running afoul of Federal Rules 8, 12 and 56. In response to the contention that the anti-SLAPP legislation "directly conflicted" with those rules, the Court concluded:

[T]wo aspects of California's Anti-SLAPP statute are at issue: the special motion to strike, Cal. Civ. P.Code § 425.16(b), and the availability of fees and costs, Cal. Civ. P.Code § 425.16(c). We conclude that these provisions and Rules 8, 12, and 56 'can exist side by side ... each controlling its own intended sphere of coverage without conflict.' Walker v. Armco Steel, 446 U.S. at 752, 100 S.Ct. 1978, 64 L.Ed.2d 659.
Id. at 972. The Court further noted:

Although Rules 12 and 56 allow a litigant to test the opponent's claims before trial, California's "special motion to strike" adds an additional, unique weapon to the pretrial arsenal, a weapon whose sting is enhanced by a[n] entitlement to fees and costs. Plainly, if the anti-SLAPP provisions are held not to apply in federal court, a litigant interested in bringing meritless SLAPP claims would have a significant incentive to shop for a federal forum. Conversely, a litigant otherwise entitled to the protections of the anti-SLAPP statute would find considerable disadvantage in a federal proceeding. This outcome appears to run squarely against the "twin aims" of the Erie doctrine.

Reread what is in bold very closely.

Chris

the PDF has now been posted on vbulletin.com and text version on theadminzone.com forums

$250,000 in damages supposedly is what Brian was sued for

ADRMOP, E-Filing, MEDIATION


U.S. District Court
California Northern District (San Francisco)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 3:05-cv-02733-WHA

All Enthusiast, Inc. v. Gunter
Assigned to: Hon. William H. Alsup
Case in other court: Napa County Superior Court, 26-29614
Cause: 28:1441 Petition For Removal--Other Contract
Date Filed: 07/05/2005
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 190 Contract: Other
Jurisdiction: Diversity
Plaintiff
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Jamie L. Dupree
Futterman & Dupree LLP
160 Sansome Street
17th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94104
415-399-3840
Fax: 415-399-****
Email: jdupree@*****
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Navid Yadegar
Proskauer Rose LLP
2049 Century Park East,
Suite 3200
Los Angeles, CA 90067-3206
310-557-2900
Fax: 310-557-****
Email: nyadegar@*****
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Plaintiff
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Navid Yadegar
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED


V.

Defendant
Brian Gunter represented by Brian M. O'Dea
McNichols Randick O'Dea & Tooliatos
[address removed]
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Cynthia J. Lee
Thomas, Kayden, Horstmeyer & Risley, LLP
[removed]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Dan R. Gresham
Thomas, Kayden, Horstmeyer & Risley, LLP
[removed]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Defendant
Plurplanet, Inc. represented by Brian M. O'Dea
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Cynthia J. Lee
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Dan R. Gresham
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Counter-claimant
Plurplanet, Inc.

Counter-claimant
Brian Gunter


V.

Counter-defendant
All Enthusiast, Inc. represented by Navid Yadegar
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED


Date Filed # Docket Text
07/05/2005 1 NOTICE OF REMOVAL AND DEMAND FOR JURY TRIAL from Napa County Superior Court. Their case number is 26-29614. (Filing fee $250 receipt number 3373961). Filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) Additional attachment(s) added on 7/8/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/05/2005 2 ADR SCHEDULING ORDER: Case Management Statement due by 9/22/2005. Case Management Conference set for 10/6/2005 11:00 AM. (Attachments: # 1)(sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/05/2005 CASE DESIGNATED for Electronic Filing. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 7/5/2005) (Entered: 07/06/2005)
07/08/2005 3 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter re: Various Court Docs (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/08/2005 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. Motion Hearing set for 8/18/2005 08:00 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) Modified on 7/11/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/08/2005 5 MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES in Support re 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Related document(s)4) (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 7/8/2005) Modified on 7/11/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/08/2005)
07/28/2005 6 Memorandum in Opposition re 4 MOTION to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction pursuant to Fed. Rule 12(b)(2) filed byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/28/2005 7 Certificate of Interested Entities (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/28/2005 8 DECLARATION of Scott Wainner re: 6 IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFF ALL ENTHUSIAST, INC.'S MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO DISMISS filed byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A# 2 Exhibit B)(Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 7/28/2005) Modified on 8/1/2005 (sis, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 07/28/2005)
07/29/2005 9 NOTICE of Appearance by Jamie L. Dupree Notice of Appearance of Counsel (Dupree, Jamie) (Filed on 7/29/2005) (Entered: 07/29/2005)
07/29/2005 10 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE by All Enthusiast, Inc. re 9 Notice of Appearance (Dupree, Jamie) (Filed on 7/29/2005) (Entered: 07/29/2005)
08/03/2005 11 Reply to Opposition to Defendants' Motion to Dismiss filed byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit Exhibit A)(O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 8/3/2005) (Entered: 08/03/2005)
08/04/2005 12 ORDER DENYING MOTION TO DISMISS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION AND VACATING HEARING by Judge Alsup denying 4 Motion to Dismiss for Lack of Jurisdiction (whalc1, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/4/2005) (Entered: 08/04/2005)
08/17/2005 13 ANSWER to Complaint with Jury Demand, COUNTERCLAIM against All Enthusiast, Inc., All Enthusiast, Inc. byPlurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (O'Dea, Brian) (Filed on 8/17/2005) (Entered: 08/17/2005)
08/22/2005 14 MOTION for leave to appear in Pro Hac Vice, Dan R. Gresham, Esq. filed by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/22/2005) (Entered: 08/23/2005)
08/22/2005 Received Order re [14] MOTION for leave to appear in Pro Hac Vice by Plurplanet, Inc., Brian Gunter. (sis, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 8/22/2005) (Entered: 08/23/2005)
08/30/2005 15 ANSWER TO COUNTERCLAIM byAll Enthusiast, Inc.. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 8/30/2005) (Entered: 08/30/2005)
09/06/2005 16 ORDER by Judge Willam Alsup granting [14] Motion for Pro Hac Vice of Dan R. Gresham. (dt, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 9/6/2005) (Entered: 09/06/2005)
09/15/2005 17 ADR Certification (ADR L.R. 3-5b) of discussion of ADR options (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 9/15/2005) (Entered: 09/15/2005)
09/22/2005 18 JOINT CASE MANAGEMENT STATEMENT and Proposed Order filed by Plurplanet, Inc., All Enthusiast, Inc., Brian Gunter. (Yadegar, Navid) (Filed on 9/22/2005) (Entered: 09/22/2005)
09/29/2005 19 CLERK'S NOTICE Rescheduling Case Management Conference for 10/6/2005 03:00 PM. (dt, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 9/29/2005) (Entered: 09/29/2005)
10/06/2005 21 Minute Entry: Initial Case Management Conference held on 10/6/2005 before William Alsup (Date Filed: 10/7/2005), Case referred to mediation. Jury Trial set for 9/11/2006 07:30 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. (Court Reporter Michael Shintaku.) (dt, COURT STAFF) (Date Filed: 10/7/2005) Modified on 10/7/2005 (dt, COURT STAFF). (Entered: 10/07/2005)
10/07/2005 20 CASE MANAGEMENT SCHEDULING ORDER: ORDER REFERRING CASE to ADR Unit for Mediation. Discovery due by 4/28/2006. Jury Trial set for 9/11/2006 07:30 AM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. Motions due by 6/15/2006. Pretrial Conference set for 8/21/2006 02:00 PM in Courtroom 9, 19th Floor, San Francisco. Signed by Judge William Alsup on 10/7/2005. (whasec, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 10/7/2005) (Entered: 10/07/2005)
10/24/2005 22 ADR Clerk's Notice Appointing Jo S. Levy as Mediator dated 10/24/2005. (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 10/24/2005) (Entered: 10/24/2005)
11/09/2005 Mediator would like to conduct the required Pre MED phone conference by 11/30/05. Parties should confirm their availability for the call by 11/14/05. (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 11/9/2005) (Entered: 11/09/2005)
11/14/2005 Pre MED phone conference scheduled on Thursday, December 1, 2005 at 12:00 noon Eastern time (9:00 A.M. Pacific time). (af, COURT STAFF) (Filed on 11/14/2005) (Entered: 11/14/2005)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PACER Service Center
Transaction Receipt

What a freaking messed up lawsuit.

When did variable names become patented? This is a bad precident, since anyone using a variable that maybe even close to some company's, they can get sued.

That PDF doesn't even go into proving the case that Brian stoled anything, let alone did anything wrong. What it does show they mediated in the end (for court/lawyer fees; or either party to save face).

Either way, this is a chill for all modders.

Chris

Gunter studied and experimented with the computer code underlying the program with the intent of re-packaging the Photopost program and then distributing it for illicit financial gains.
In contravention of the license he used Photopost as a basis for essentially a "copy-cat" program.
Gunter then exploited Photopost for his own commercial purposes, utilizing the program beyond one website and beyond handling photo images on a private, non-commercial basis.


11. Having misappropriated intellectual property from All Enthusiasts and violated the license, Gunter operates under the guise of PlurPlanet, Inc. and markets his own version of the program.
PlurPlanet and Gunter distribute their computer program under the name 'vBadvanced Gallery' which is derived from Gunters unlicensed and illegal use of Photopost.
Gunter and PlurPlanet have sold products and thereby improperly taken sales and profits from All Enthusiasts, as well as injured All Enthusiast's goodwill in the marketplace. Defendants systematic activities marketing vBadvanced Gallery are nationwide, including reacing into california..

12. When All Enthusiasts ascertained information that Gunter/PlurPlanet might be engaged in wrongdoing, All Enthusiasts promptly raised objections. In response, Gunter acknowledged his wrongdoing. He c..... sharing the photopost program with another person in violation of the license.
He also made further admissions about the vBadvanced Gallery as follows:

'Many parts of the user and still look similar to Photopost since I had been running that before I wrote my own and didn't want to change too much and confuse my users..'

'Yes, some of the variable names are still the same as Photoposts. (piece missing) It was much easier at the time to keep some of the same variable names when I was first writing the script and before I had intentions of reselling it...'



=summary=

13. trafficing All enthusiasts intellectual property supposedly

14. Abuse of the PlurPlanet company for being it's sole proprieter

15. intentionally hurt All Enthusiasts

16. gunter had a photopost license

17. gunter misused photopost

18. By reason of the foregoing, All Enthusiasts has been damaged by Gunter directly, in an amount in excess of $250,000, to be proven at trial

Photopost sacked him. The only real illegal thing I see is 1 license violation for sharing the copy of the software. That carries a max of $50,000 in any court. not $250,000+

Thing is there is no court document that proved he even shared a program. There's nothing there, but Brian gets this cloud over him that he's some thief -- even though the courts didn't rule that he was (they have to rule of one's guilt or innocence, not what's listed as guilt in some court document).

This case was to go before a jury, but at the last moment was kicked into mediation. Although a quick exit, under the settlement, Brian can't even defend his own name. That's what really stinks.

Chris

If you read the PDF, the evidence is very clear. Albiet this looks underhanded, it was actually played out, IMO, as just business.

This is the problem: until a court rules of guilt or innocence, anything listed in that document isn't proven. Which means it's up to conjecture. Without a court ruling, we won't know actually if anything illegal was committed.

They settled. But that doesn't mean guilt or innocence.

Chris

This is the problem: until a court rules of guilt or innocence, anything listed in that document isn't proven. Which means it's up to conjecture. Without a court ruling, we won't know actually if anything illegal was committed.

They settled. But that doesn't mean guilt or innocence.

Chris


Exactly. As I said before. I have it on good authority that Brian had spent in excess of $30k on lawyers to date to defend this case, and they were telling him a trial would take that total to over $100k. Settling was his only smart option financially. However, settling does not mean he admitted guilt. Settlements happen all the time because its not financially feasible to defend.

Simple Example. Lets assume I own a site, ABC.com, and its a sucessful site. You register ABC-1.com to compete with me. You build a site, but its not making much money yet. I sue you for the domain alleging trademark infrigement claiming I have trademark rights in "ABC".

You have to decide if its worth paying $5k to a lawyer to defend a $15 domain name. If you win, you get to keep the $15 domain name, but are out the $5k you paid the lawyer. If you lose, you, I get the domain name and your out $5k to boot.

Smart move is to just give up the domain name and move on. It doesnt mean you admit you infringed on my trademark, or that I even have a trademark. Just means you didnt think it made sense financially to fight.

Well, I can see why Brian would want to avoid a lawsuit. Did a bit of research. It seems Scott is worth about $15 million.

Well, I can see why Brian would want to avoid a lawsuit. Did a bit of research. It seems Scott is worth about $15 million.

Oh LORD now the speculation has officially topped out :eek:. Nothing I've ever done has ever been worth near that amount, dot com bust and tech market fallout aside. I run a successful business that does not begin and end with PhotoPost and maybe some day I'll reach that level but you've got to be joking. I'm simply a hard working entrepreneur working to protect my business and do what I think is right.

Well, wouldnt it have made more sense to just come out and tell everyone what happened instead of all the speculation and searching for information? All your dancing around everything makes you look un-trustworthy to me.

Not really, considering both sides are under an NDA not to discuss the matter.

Well, enjoying the PR?

I feel sorry for you that you harbor such bitterness and ill-will especially given that you are in posession of only a tiny snapshot of the facts.

vbadvanced gallery customers can already download the product from our site, our forums are up, our email support is up, we have hired 2 new well-respected support people so far this week who already have extensive experience supporting vbadvanced gallery and we are working on hiring additional staff as well.

dont feel sorry for me. I dont harbor ill-will. I simply think you have acted poorly in this situation, and caused alot of VB owners alot of aggravation. From your various posts, I dont trust you, mainly because you seem to be very non committal and evasive with the answers you do give.

Again, I can't be completely forthcoming due to the NDA. But that's only regarding the business side of things. From a customer service, support, and product perspective, I have been nothing but completely upfront and I have followed through on every promise that I have made.

Again, I can't be completely forthcoming due to the NDA. But that's only regarding the business side of things. From a customer service, support, and product perspective, I have been nothing but completely upfront and I have followed through on every promise that I have made.


If you say so. I see it differently, as do many other people.

Yes.

It's hard to place a thumb on it, but I think folks sense something isn't right. Jelsoft combed vbAdvanced over for code violations, and vbAdvanced seem to pass muster with them. Coders in the vB community (who live and breath it) have worked with both products. Someone out of all of them would've found out there was lifted copy and would've reported it already. I've seen mods get pulled from vb.org because of code lifting, and I believe astute coders would've known and policed their own home of copyright violations, too (as they do it).

This is what smells so fishy, and to fight a guy who's offering a product the vB community likes is also, IMO, ugly.

I don't have a license to vBA or PP, but what I dislike in all of this is a modder who made a very good product (and servicing what he sells) is slammed, and by the looks of it, for fun or plain meaness. That doesn't bode well for the vB community and for all the volunteers that keep the addon community alive and kicking. Such ugly lawsuits hurts such communities, and to me that is evil (I may not know coding much, but I least understand pride in one's work). There's kids just learning code and pros over at vb.org, and they're donating their time and even money to get mods done. They don't need sharks running around claiming that their script is stolen when there's no proven evidence otherwise.

This normally isn't my business (it's a coder's brawl), but even I understand that there's some decor you expect from a business, and if you cater to the vB community, at least behave accordingly (we pay good money for products and expect good PROFESSIONAL service for it).

Chris

Well, Scott doesnt seem to think we pay enough:

By ScottW on vb.org (photopost representative)

We have not yet set pricing for PhotoPost vbGallery. However, I don't understand why it's reasonable to pay $160 for a quality forum (vBulletin), but it isn't reasonable to pay $129 for a quality gallery application. As for our past prices, we have offered limited-time sales, but our regular price has averaged $129-$149 for several years.

we have hired 2 new well-respected support people so far this week who already have extensive experience supporting vbadvanced gallery and we are working on hiring additional staff as well.

I know you hired Kevin, but who else from vba did you snag?

For that much it's like paying for XP (a very major program). vB has a lot more code, and they do service what they sell pretty well.

I didn't bother to buy PP because of the price tag (looked at it over a year ago). For that much money, I'd expect at least a comprehensive CMS or a comprehensive blog (much better than anything offered, too).

Been spoiled by vB too much, and when online products don't compare to it's tight code and service, it's like throwing time and money away.

Chris

I looked through the PDF and am puzzled.


To study and experiment .... with the intent of re-packaging the Photopost program
and then distributing it for illicit financial gain.

If the code is entirely different.
How can that be misappropriating intellectual property ? Isn't the implementation what counts and not the concept/idea ?


Many parts of the user end still look similar to Photopost since I had been running that before I wrote my own and didn't want to change too much and confused my users...

And how is that a 'chargeable offence' ?
Maintaining a similar user interface, a common interface, is simply good UI design practice for programmers/designers.
If that is the case, would all websites be sued by the very first website, since millions use tables to display information ?


Yes some of the variable names are still the same as Photopost's...It was much easier at the time to keep some of the same variable names when I was first writing the script and before I had intentions of reselling it..



I was also not concerned if some of the variables were still the same as Photopost's since I did not have intentions of reselling it at that time...

Are variable names copyrighted ?

No. By their very nature (as they change...lol) variable names aren't copyrighted, let alone patented. It's like if Jelsoft wanted to copyright "tborder", it can't be done as it's a common word.

Lifting code wholesale IS a crime, but by all accounts (from those who use both products) that's not the case. They're arguing over what LOOKS to be a similiar product -- and unlike Jelsoft looking over vbAdvance for possibly stealing code (and was cleared), this didn't occur with the PP group, they sued instead.

Chris

If the lawsuit was based on similarities between vbagallery and pp, then it seems to me that at then end of the negotiations when brian signed over vbagallery then they would pull the product from the market, and instead switch the vbadvanced users over to pp instead - but the fact is they are NOT the same, which is why they continue to offer it. ALso, the amount quoted above regarding future pricing is crazy, and unrealistic, and I think pp will find that the market will not bear such a ridiculously high price.

I was very bummed to see the news about vbgallery being sold to the photopost goons.

I have used photopost for many many years and the guys that run it are far from professional. In fact, they are kooks to say the least.

On the other hand, vbgallery and Brian were top notch.

It is always a bummer to see a good product get sold to a lame company.

Oh well, I guess I won't be renewing my vbgallery license. :(

If the lawsuit was based on similarities between vbagallery and pp, then it seems to me that at then end of the negotiations when brian signed over vbagallery then they would pull the product from the market, and instead switch the vbadvanced users over to pp instead - but the fact is they are NOT the same, which is why they continue to offer it. ALso, the amount quoted above regarding future pricing is crazy, and unrealistic, and I think pp will find that the market will not bear such a ridiculously high price.

yoyo, you obviously haven't followed the PP guys and their tactics for too long. I don't know what really happened with this deal but I would not put anything past them. In addition, you are dead wrong about the pricing. Those guys will do whatever they want to and they do give a flying flip what the "market" says about it. You can expect the price to go up considerably.

No. By their very nature (as they change...lol) variable names aren't copyrighted, let alone patented. It's like if Jelsoft wanted to copyright "tborder", it can't be done as it's a common word.

Lifting code wholesale IS a crime, but by all accounts (from those who use both products) that's not the case. They're arguing over what LOOKS to be a similiar product -- and unlike Jelsoft looking over vbAdvance for possibly stealing code (and was cleared), this didn't occur with the PP group, they sued instead.

Chris

So why is the variable names thingy an issue even ?

And since he didnt lift code wholesale, just perhaps maintaining a somewhat similiar look, why is there an infringement of intellectual property rules/laws ?

So why is the whole affair an issue even ?
So maybe running more than one instance of just one license can get you in trouble .. but what they are bringing him to court for, for most of it at least, doesn't seem to make sense nor hold up and yet they apparently 'won'.
What gives ?

Just trying to understand the dynamics of these court rulings better.

Well, as ive previously said, I have it on good authority that Brian at VBA spent $30k+ to date defending this case. He just didnt have any more money to fight with, and had to settle. It says nothing about the merits of the case. I dont know the facts of the case - just the allegations. Maybe Brian would have lost at trial. I dont know. We'll never know.

When something is settled out of court neither party have to prove anything. They decided to settle this out of court apperantly so going over the details of the case and trying to prove them is basicly useless from a legal stand point.

The legal fees to fight something like this are most of the time not worth the trouble. Facing someone with lots of money to back up their claims is no small task when you're one guy working out of the home.

Facing someone with lots of money to back up their claims is no small task when you're one guy working out of the home.

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath. I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts. I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here. There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

So why is the variable names thingy an issue even ?

And since he didnt lift code wholesale, just perhaps maintaining a somewhat similiar look, why is there an infringement of intellectual property rules/laws ?

So why is the whole affair an issue even ?
So maybe running more than one instance of just one license can get you in trouble .. but what they are bringing him to court for, for most of it at least, doesn't seem to make sense nor hold up and yet they apparently 'won'.
What gives ?

Just trying to understand the dynamics of these court rulings better.


All that is what stinks here.

When Jelsoft thought Brian lifted their code with vBAdvanced, they suspended vBA participation at vb.org until they combed through it to ensure their code wasn't lifted. They cleared it, and Brian was free to continue. That shows a "light touch" from Jelsoft and in return has benefits for the entire vB community (Brian's product was aimed at our community, and so well integrated it's the closest it can get to having a Jelsoft product without them coding it itself). If Jelsoft was litigation happy, the vB community would be in a lurch of not having a fairly close products, and they'd be reduced to third party forumware that's not to vB standards (hey, we pay good money for a good product, we expect equal quality extensions). Jelsoft has a vested interest in protecting their own turf, but they're also allowing a very active modding community to extend vBulletin's usefulness. On a business model it's a winning combination -- they sell the base code, the community expands it. It's something like combining closed source and open source. A happy medium.

When a company is more interested in property rights, than the needs of a community (or as an extension to expand a product's usefulness), it kills not only their product line, there's no built in rah rah group to keep their community together. What this rival did to Brian was to shoot themselves in the foot, then the other foot by being arrogant and ugly on multiple boards (the worst PR I've seen by any company online -- and I thought I've seen some really bad ones). Their posts are all over the vB community boards, which hightlight the criticism of their customer service problems twice fold. I wouldn't have known about it's bad PR until seeing their posts myself of late, and frankly I'm disgusted to the level of unprofessionalism -- it's like seeing a 15 year-old who just found their penis (and that domain name that is bragged about gives me the impression of a snake in a grass, too -- furthering the PR disaster). Never had seen such horrid PR mistakes than what has transpired. It looks bad, even from an observer POV. It's almost like they want to sink. :eek:

Brian maybe guilty of sharing a copy of a license (or did he loan it?), but from what I've seen with Jelsoft's staff is, is to give a warning -- which is usually enough to amend the situation, not send in the Marines. Quiet resolution is what companies want, as no company needs a messy PR disaster (why complaining about a horrid host at WHT can get you swift service!).

Personally, I don't care how they reorganize, if the company heads can't see ---what--- their former clients disliked in their service, it'll mean they'll still have the same problems in the new service. For the non drama queens, IMO, it's time to shop for a new product (which I hope Jelsoft offers, so we don't have this I SUE YOU squabbles in the mod community <-- which is at least 95% volunteer).

Chris

yoyo, you obviously haven't followed the PP guys and their tactics for too long. I don't know what really happened with this deal but I would not put anything past them. In addition, you are dead wrong about the pricing. Those guys will do whatever they want to and they do give a flying flip what the "market" says about it. You can expect the price to go up considerably.
They can try to charge whatever they want, but the market will not bear such an expensive gallery mod for vbulletin. They may not care what the market says, but that is bad business. When TWT Commish was the only game in town for a decent quiz script I am sure he sold many copies, however when a free quiz was released I am sure that cut in to his business a lot. The same with vbstyles Hide Hack. The same goes here - the fact is there are many cheaper alternatives, with better support than photopost. Once the word gets around the vb modding community that pp forced vbag out of business there will be a huge backlash against photopost as well. Brian has made a lot of friends in this community though his goodwill, and photopost has NOT.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward.
You should have thought of that earlier. This is not going to go away. Brian is well-liked in the vbulletin community, and the way that this played out stinks outright. To say "Everything is fine - and that can be proven by the fact that we both have stuck to the NDA" is total crap. I am willing to bet that Brian is not the one who asked for the NDA, either, so you look foolish by using that as a defense. VBAG is obviously a different and BETTER product or you would not still be offering a version of it. I think photopost has awful business practices, and that their products are third rate, and their support has a history of being awful and unhelpful, and I will be sure to tell anyone who is thinking of buying a gallery mod for vbulletin to avoid photopost like the plague.

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath.

It's not hard, when this case was booted to FEDERAL court, not settled in the mod community itself (which polices itself fairly well).

A matter the community could've handled inhouse got turned into a case that has "greed' stamped all over it. If you can't see how and why that is how it comes off, it's hopeless you can understand the other complaints about your service. All of this never needed to be if you guys would be more interested in LISTENING, instead of ligitating and bragging and showing a butt (or getting supporters to act the same -- that thread at vB turned nasty on a dime all the sudden, BTW).

What you don't seem to understand or even want to understand, is that the mod community is a small independent group that donates their time. Some, like Brian, can actually make a paying mod (and kudos for the guys that can do it), and it's an inspiration for budding coders and coders learning the trade in college. Lawsuits put a damper not only on what YOU'RE interested in, what the rest of the community is interested in. Go after one, it has a ripple effect in the rest of the community. That's why this affair looks evil, even to non coders who just want a product as it can prevent further development of like kind mods.

It's like all of the jibes about MS are true, that it gobbles up rivals to squash competiton, to the point it becomes the most hated software on Earth. Can you understand at least that analogy? It doesn't help your company, to by the looks of it, squashing competition (nor does it help the mod community expand). You're not an island, no software is. From closed to open source someone somewhere will want to tweak it and make it better (and even MS doesn't squash Windowblinds and other style or function companies, because they understand it helps their customers stay happy -- one thing about MS, they even welcome folks to expand XP's features, SDKs and help on making icons,etc., you name it [even if you're going make money from it]).

I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts.

It was a wrong way to do it. Mediation could've worked wonders, and even better just hiring an INDEPENDENT code decompiler to go through it all and release the results. That's enough evidence to satisfy most if there was code lifting (as other modders don't like their code stolen, either <-- you'll see the community has a vested interest in policing themselves). You let the community handle their own, as rep is everything in that line of business.

Now that this is done, and folks are going over both vBGallery and PP to see what you're complaining about is or isn't true, what happens when they find it's not true? It backfires on you, and that sting is worse than any legal bill, as the community will eat your product and company alive with boycotts and simply refusing to buy/renew it. They're not fools, they wouldn't want to be treated like that -- they'll pass their own judgement with their pocketbooks.

I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here.

We don't know that. All we see are the results. One with a gag on them.

There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

Professional? Maybe the lawyers were, but not what's been displayed online with this crossfire. It comes off childish and ugly. A Wal-Mart exec would get fired for less if this junk got TV time, as it's a PR disaster.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

That all depends how you run PP, and how it won't interfere with other modders out there building SIMILIAR products. Will you try to go after Jelsoft if they made a Gallery extension too? Claiming it's similiar? Claiming because anyone of their staff else has a copy they stole code?

See how ugly that lawsuit looks? See how it doesn't help anyone but yourselves? And why folks are disgusted in it? There's more questions, and the answers don't match up with the evidence at hand.

Chris

This was not my intention Scott, admitly I am going on second hand information. Nor do I own photopost or any vBadvanced products. I was not speaking about this situation directly in the second part of the post and I should have made that clear.

I do have friends that work over at vBa and while I'm not asking questions, they are certainly following the NDA and are not speaking about the issue.

Honestly all of this is none of my business, and I don't care to make it my business. So I'll leave you with good luck and won't post in this thread anymore.

Have a good'n ;) :)

It's ridiculous to paint us as a goliath. I am one entrepreneur working out of a home office full-time with several full-time independent contractors that do support, development, customer service, etc, offsite. I did what I thought was right given the facts. I should be able to make use of the legal system as it was intended without being accused of bullying, stomping out competition, legal maneuvering, etc, none of which came into play here. There are companies out there that use the legal system as a tool, or I should say abuse it as a tool - that's not us. The legal system exists to enforce the law, and it requires a formal procedure involving court filings, lawyers, etc. We have been nothing but completely professional throughout this entire process, behind the scenes and in the public eye. You will see no mudslinging, no underhanded tactics, and as you have come to see, both sides are strictly honoring the agreed upon NDA.

I'd really like to ask that we all put this behind us and move forward. I'm sure vbadvanced.com will create many good products going forward, you should support them with those projects, and our company will continue to develop and support PhotoPost vBGallery and maintain the high standards that you have come to expect from the product and its previous support.

It really doesn't matter whether they are a mountain or a mole hill, they are lame and it appears some really good information has come out of this thread about their tactics. Though I was aware of such tactics beforehand.

I personally will not be renewing any licenses with them and will be recommending the same to all my customers.

Their products/code aren't that great anyway.

I suggest people speak with their wallets (or lack thereof) and put word of mouth advertising to use, after all it is the best form of advertising around.

Now that I think about how I own 2 vba gallery licenses.. they might actually become more valuable to some people.. This could drive the value of a vba license up over a photopost vba license :eek: Too bad you can't sell them (read the vbadvanced license agreement), but still. Value++:D

Now that I think about how I own 2 vba gallery licenses.. they might actually become more valuable to some people.. This could drive the value of a vba license up over a photopost vba license :eek: Too bad you can't sell them (read the vbadvanced license agreement), but still. Value++:D


I betcha brian doesnt care of you sell them now :)

Now that I think about how I own 2 vba gallery licenses.. they might actually become more valuable to some people.. This could drive the value of a vba license up over a photopost vba license :eek: Too bad you can't sell them (read the vbadvanced license agreement), but still. Value++:D

Oh, that's sneaky. ;) Thought domain shopping was a search for a good investment, didn't think scripts and programs would be good during a takeover too. ;)

Chris

From vb.com

Some pretty convincing things inside of the court report.

I want to point something out. That court 'report' is just the complaint filed by PP. It is NOT evidence. It is merely an accusation and only one side of the story. Complaints always tell the story in a light most favorable to the complainant, and doesnt mean that any of the allegations could be proven. Dont read the complaint and conclude Brian of VBA did all that. Its just an allegation, its not evidence or a court decision.

From vb.com


I want to point something out. That court 'report' is just the complaint filed by PP. It is NOT evidence. It is merely an accusation and only one side of the story. Complaints always tell the story in a light most favorable to the complainant, and doesnt mean that any of the allegations could be proven. Dont read the complaint and conclude Brian of VBA did all that. Its just an allegation, its not evidence or a court decision.

Especially since (I believe) Photopost was still using Perl when Brian coded vba. I'd like to know how code can be stolen in a different language. Having a similar style is not illegal either, otherwise almost every paid vB skinner would be out of business.

Does anyone know how many are looking over the code, yet? Because they can pipe in and tell us if Brian built his before PP switched to php. At least that question can be answered fairly quickly, while others are going through each line.

Chris

I dont know - but would love a few coders to look at both and let us know their opinions.

BTW, notice where the "hot" posting is at now? Wonder why? Already got a post censored there over the "fan boi rah rah" remark.

Chris

BTW, notice where the "hot" posting is at now? Chris

Where? I'm guessing that hellhole, TAZ?

Yep.

Sad that you have to tiptoe around just to post and not have words pulled.

One thing is for sure I like it that they think I'm "ignorant". There must be a reason why I don't back off, eh? ;)

Let's see: bad vibes on 3 people. 1 (and his associate) is serving 5 to 20 in federal pen (that one got national airplay). 1 is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Another, no longer practices medicine.

It's why I'm very patient about awaiting evidence (not soap operas). ;)

Chris

Let's see: bad vibes on 3 people. 1 (and his associate) is serving 5 to 20 in federal pen (that one got national airplay). 1 is awaiting sentencing in federal court. Another, no longer practices medicine.




huh???

@Chris: I have been reading your posts recently on the various vB communities, and I must say that I very much like your approach and straight/no mess/direct attitude. Kudos to ya sir.

You will find that TAZ limits what it offers, and does not allow users the choice of all available, relevant and appropriate community resources out there. For example, you can talk about any web site here on vBW, without fear of recrimination or of the deceitful use of replacement variables. You simply cannot do that on TAZ, sandman uses replacement variables to censor out those sites that he considers a threat. This is a shame as TAZ itself is a superb site, shame about the modus operandi of admins there.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, it is a shame that TAZ is not conducive to the open and pragmatic debate prevalent here and on other excellent community resources.

sandman uses replacement variables to censor out those sites that he considers a threat.

As evidenced by Best-Board.com, which when used, is replaced with tazcopycat.com. :mad: I guess being like TAZ, but expurgated of greed, favoritism, and deception, and offering plenty of free resouces makes us a clone. :rolleyes:

Did he ever stop to think that if he behaved in a more appropriate manner, there wouldn't necissarily be a need for B-B? (Of course we give away prizes, something which TAZ is too stingy to do)

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I for one, though not surprised, am annoyed to here (can't see--IP ban, and I don't feel compelled to use a proxy) to here him kissing PP ass. He's doing this just so that he can create another strategic alliance in an effort to quash his competition.

Joey: this is nothing of that sort! Just saying I'm not a "new kid on the block" on legalese. ;) I'm not an attorney, but do know something about the Law and it's practice.

Just trying to say....been there, done that, and I can carve through BS like a hot knife through butter (not into soap operas, just the facts). If libel wasn't much of a concern, you guys would've gotten a real "Perry Manson" treat. ;)

BTW, everyone: do be careful of what you say, no direct accusations, no libel. You can be tripped very easily through prodding and pushing (or questions about your own intelligence, honor and other traps). If you're nabbed on libel, you're gagged and out of money too. You have to dot those "I's" and cross those "T's" very carefully.

Chris

As evidenced by Best-Board.com, which when used, is replaced with tazcopycat.com. :mad: I guess being like TAZ, but expurgated of greed, favoritism, and deception, and offering plenty of free resouces makes us a clone. :rolleyes:

Did he ever stop to think that if he behaved in a more appropriate manner, there wouldn't necissarily be a need for B-B? (Of course we give away prizes, something which TAZ is too stingy to do)

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I for one, though not surprised, am annoyed to here (can't see--IP ban, and I don't feel compelled to use a proxy) to here him kissing PP ass. He's doing this just so that he can create another strategic alliance in an effort to quash his competition.

I'm new to these histories, and if you guys can fill in the gaps it would be wonderful.

Trying to figure out why all this has a sinister ring (for a lack of a better term) to it.

All I know is Brian is being creamed when NO ONE in public has evidence of his guilt. He maybe guilty as sin, or as innocent, but NO ONE knows the truth until the evidence is in. That's a simple and straight forward fact.

Chris

Nothing too sinister here Chris, except in my opinion - with the admin on TAZ.

I am being serious here when I say be careful what you ask on there, as you are likely to get yourself banned; and under no circumstances put a link to certain other forums in your signature. Simply being a member of certain other www sites seems to be enough to get banned from there, which is a shame because as I say, TAZ is a very good resource - just not as the mission statement suggests... for all community administrators. I can tell you more but I don't wish to disclose the content of full threads in public... PM me by all means if you need further information.

Are you aware of the dirty tactics campaign employed by British Airways when they were threatened by Virgin... well put it this way, there's some synergy there ;) The thing is, not many people are aware of this, and of those who are - are afraid to speak out in case of being subject to the same dirty tricks. It makes no odds to me or my wife or my 14yr old son... ;)

Lets not turn this into a TAZ bashing thread. I may not agree with his methods, but the admin of TAZ is entitled to run his site anyway he sees fit, and certainly he has a following. Naturally I prefer VBW and BB - :)

Couldn't agree with you more Joey... I for one am not bashing TAZ, and as you know, I never have. I do feel though that the following to whom you refer deserve to be as informed as possible on certain things and is the reason I posted thus.

I just did a code comparison between the two pieces of software. compared every line of code in every file against the others, and..

0 lines we're the same between the two pieces of software.
1 variable was duplicated that I found.. $username

so, there ya are, stolen lines of code!

Interesting.... Like I said, just one side of the story is all the court documents provide, and certainly not proven to be true.

Crap. This stuff is all over the internet. :( Another den of snakes. Is there anywhere online that's not full of politics and who can screw who????

Had an opportunity to join their teams and such but declined (never was into being in a club, as I value independence more). Just like the addons at WHT, or even other forums, but declined all. It's due to the crappy politics and other soap operas that comes from being in some special group. Not into small talk, not into gossip, and definitely not stabbing others in the back to "fit in".

So understand what can transpire, and how dirty it can get (and I mean dirty underhand junk you'd think came straight from Hollyweird). And not surprised certain parties are there and can post safely too. :rolleyes:

Oops....didn't see the exchange above. Tardy reply. :x

Chris

I just did a code comparison between the two pieces of software. compared every line of code in every file against the others, and..

0 lines we're the same between the two pieces of software.
1 variable was duplicated that I found.. $username

so, there ya are, stolen lines of code!

Like to see what the other side has come up with too (if they're silent, folks can conclude they can't bring up anything either), then compare both. Then it's fair and square in the open, and folks can see who really is the guilty party.

What is telling is Viper's comment that things are sealed and his cockiness that it is secret. Apparently he didn't realize that some things no court can seal -- especially if he wants to stay in business -- the code is there with those who own it, and anyone can do a compare and release the findings in public. ;)

No libel. No infringement of code. All blissful intel that anyone with access is free to talk about without any gag order.

Don't ya just love justice? ;)

Chris

I'm good friends with Brian and hope to be for a long time...having said that, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm growing weary of the whole thing...maybe it's time to move on and let our money and loyalties do the talking?

An accusation was made, and to date, none of the accusers have shown ANY code has been lifted. It's only logical to conclude if no evidence to shown there is no merit to the accusation. Takes NOTHING to go through the code and compare it, and nothing to report the findings.

So what gives? Only a few are gagged....not the entire rah rah section.

Chris

the code is there with those who own it, and anyone can do a compare and release the findings in public. ;)

W00t W00t, you know it.

There may be other duplicate variables I missed, but I'm 99% shure of my results for the line vs line part.

Guess that little sideshow got finished quick, and notice not a peep about that SLAPP and anti-SLAPP lesson???? Avoiding it like a plague, because he made a major boo-boo and got caught on it. ;)

Reread his first sentence, and why the whole point was lost when I ask about those little SLAPP and anti-SLAPP nuances. ;)

==Zing==

Chris

If Photopost agrees to it, as an independant coder I'll happily examine both pieces of software and determine once and for all if there is any copied code...

Somehow, I doubt they will ;)

Chris

Simply being a member of certain other www sites seems to be enough to get banned from there, which is a shame because as I say, TAZ is a very good resource
or maybe was a good rersource?

Possibly following the same downward path taken by WebMasterWorld and SEOChat? Arrogance followed by gradual decline into obscurity?

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Down for the holidays or a complete ban? lololol

Chris

I did say so Chris... looks like you can join the ever increasing and exclusive membership of the banned by sandy fan club.

On a serious note - and I am not TAZ bashing here, I am simply commenting on something that is important and perhaps pf interest to community forum managers. Do people agree that it is a crying shame that such a useful web site/resource doesn't permit open, pragmatic and constructive debate on matters that we are all concerned with?

Shame...

So that's how a ban there looks like -- can't even access the articles (which has zero to do with posting). That's a ban that's counter-productive.

Well, I hope this thread will remain the testament of this event then. Because if this isn't said, more modders can face the same crap, and the vB modding community will splinter (it'll be too hot to write a script with someone running around slurring "it's stolen", or mails members legal notices to harass).

Chris

This thread will indeed stay here and open for all to view and post within Chris. We welcome open and honest discussion and debate wholeheartedly.

Certainly a better run, less biased and arrogant environment here for sure!! I suspect TAZ is destined for the trash heaps of history as they become more and more irrelevant to the admin community!

I'm certain we have our own brand of bias and arrogance. We just let ya hit back. ;)

I'm certain we have our own brand of bias and arrogance. We just let ya hit back. ;)
LOL...well that one thing puts you light years ahead of where TAZ will ever be...

Down for the holidays or a complete ban? lololol

Chris

That's happened to me as well. He banned me becoming Staff at Best-Board.com, and then after I agrued with him over at Forum Insider, pointing out that the ban was baseless and counterproductive, we unbanned me. That was only so that I could get access to the article section. Interestingly enough, when re-instated, I also got back my access to the "Inner Circle" section. Less then a day later, seems he changed his mind. And its annoying as hell. Because jackass though he may be, occasionally there are articles worth reading (like whatever Ted S posts) that I no longer have access to.

hahah...well I guess my last two remarks about them have just earned me a ban as well...in the last 10 minutes.

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At this rate, everyone in the admin community will be banned...then what will they do?

Was wondering why the forum seemed dead -- there had to be a reason it didn't have traffic, despite all the flashy paid ads. Now I know. Sad, because I recommended TAZ, and have no choice now, since I get banned for voicing an opinion. Why should I recommend a site to others knowing they can be banned for the same reason? Without opinions and exchanges, a forum is dead anyhow.

But thanks for the heads up guys, wouldn't have known any of this otherwise.

Chris

hahah...well I guess my last two remarks about them have just earned me a ban as well...in the last 10 minutes...what a bunch of freakin losers!!!



At this rate, everyone in the admin community will be banned...then what will they do?Join alternate communities where debate is encouraged, growth for all is a must, and as Nopid says... people are able to voice an opinion with no fear of recrimination or being banned.

@Chris: You're very welcome.

I guess the most reasonable debate regarding the current vBA v's PP situation now appears to be here, on vBWebmaster eh...;)

I agree...my remark of "then what will they do?" was not about us admin's, but TAZ...with no members or traffic they are determining their own destiny.

But enough about TAZ...sorry for jacking this thread...let's move on to more important discussions ;)

Saw that Sandman was looking on the vB thread. So he's no doubt crawling the boards.

Not into slamming sites, as I believe in karma, but I just wish folks would learn a "light touch" is a better way to admin a forum. It's how to make a forum inviting, and keep folks inline without the chains and cattle prods. People are passionate, everyone has a particular interest and will defend it, it just gets ugly when folks want to control the conversation and dictate it instead. Then the ugliness and forum bad talk comes in.

Hopefully they'll learn, and all of the Admin forum sites can be about what they're for: helping to build communities and getting the HELP to do it!

Chris

It's sad but apparently not uncommon. A forum grows to the point where it becomes recognized as some sort of authority. This is followed by the forum owners starting to believe the hype. Thus begins the long slow downward slide from arrogance into obscurity.

See SEOChat, WebMasterWorld, WebProWorld, and apparently the Admin Zone.

Or like with WHT, it's bought out and the decorum of the old forum is lost, and greed replaces function.

Well, the vb.com thread seems to be dying. Not of want, but when staff starts posting "move on" you know the lock is coming.

Chris

What's "WHT"?

What's "WHT"?WebHostingTalk.com

WHT has it's own story, and it's own back channel talk as well. Rea