Joeychgo 12-25-2006, 12:49 PM Jelsoft & Pirate Reports awash in Controversy
As I first started reading about this situation among various sources, I became quite concerned. As I read more, I became even more concerned.
The facts are muddled a bit but I will link to the various threads on this subject so you can read all the replies for yourself. So far, what Im reading is alot of conflicting information between Jelsoft and Pirate Reports, the company Jelsoft contracts with to watch over pirated vBulletin Licenses.
The site in question is hongfire.com, a site dedicated to animation and "Lolicon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon)".
The site apparantly had their vBulletin license revoked a few days ago reportedly for violations of content morality. The story is unclear at present.
An email was allegedly sent to the owners of hongfire.com (was posted on the site) This is clearly not the first email exchange, but it seems to capture the essence of the issue:
Howard G Spinks
Dec 21st '06 02:18pm
Hello
The matter is not up for debate as you can either remove the morally devoid items as requested, or take your activities to another software.
You have had time to act as requested and I am having your license revoked under the Jelsoft Acceptable Use Policy and continued use of the software will be illegal and will result in your forum being deleted by your network.
I assure you that my 35 years in law enforcement have not been wasted as you appear to be insinuating.
Regards
Howard G Spinks
Jelsoft Licensing & Anti Piracy Agent
www.piratereports.com (http://www.piratereports.com/)
SO.... Did Jelsoft initiate this action?
If you follow the statements of various Jelsoft employees - no.
Considering that it is Saturday and tomorrow is Christmas Eve, it is going to take a few days before we can straighten all of this out. Please be assured that we are not going to start policing our customer's forums and revoking licenses because we do not agree with questionable content that is contained within.
Needless to say, we do not have the power to arbitrarily shut down sites, either on a legal basis or because we can't physically pull the plug on sites to which we or others object on whatever grounds. When a site is found to be in violation of the license agreement the best we can do is approach the owners of the site to request that they alter their site in order to comply with the license agreement, and if that fails we may take it to the next level and ask the hosting ISP to act on our behalf.
As the vast majority of our customers can confirm, it has never been our policy to act as 'the internet police' nor to try to enforce a moral code upon those sites that choose to run our software.
But then, we have a post on Digital point from PirateReports
Just so you can at least get something right, I DO NOT HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO REVOKE ANY VB LICENSE NOR DID I REVOKE THIS ONE.
(Source (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=1987406&postcount=11))
But then, on Digg I found this:
Mr. Spinks has made a post on Digg.com
The facts are as follows :
Firstly there was a complaint from a Child Welfare Group in the US. and I contacted the license owner and asked for the child abuse pictures to be removed. User refused.
I spoke to the Business Manager at vB and he too felt Jelsoft should not be associated with child abuse even animated. (chained kids and young girls being abused with foreign objects etc. is not normal)
Then I asked the user to find new forum software as a refund would be given if the items were not removed.
User ignored request and responded to the effect that we in the UK should not try to force UK law on US citizens.
License revoked under AUP, refund given and network asked to suspend use.
Cry foul if you wish but this is the first time I have encountered this sort of material and I am going to call in some favours from my contacts who I am sure will be very interested in taking a closer look.
I could have revoked the license, not refunded the money and had the license deleted with no dialogue as the AUP of a product is far more powerful than any Law and the owners decision is final.
Children need someone looking out for them and I am not asking for anyones’ permission.
No further comment.
Now, apparantly under the weight of this controversy, Jelsoft reinstated the license for hongfire.com
Who did what? I dont know.
I would like to know what really happened here. This is one of those instances where the whole truth should come out because statements appear to be in conflict. I personally am withholding judgement and opinion until I know what really happened here. I urge everyone else to do the same.
Sources:
Dirty Worker Blog (http://blogs.dirtyworker.com/2006/12/23/vbulletin-license-problems/)
Digital Point Thread (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=1989694)
DIGG Article (http://www.digg.com/software/PirateReports_revokes_vBulletin_license_of_HongFir e_com_for_moral_reasons)
vBulletin Thread (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213539)
sinjix_media 12-25-2006, 01:59 PM I don't like this.
I don't like this at all.
I bought the software; I don't want to feel like i have to watch what i say or do on my own site because big brother is watching me.
To feel that someone else has the POWER to do such a thing is very unsettling.
Peggy 12-25-2006, 02:10 PM wow, there is OH so much I'd like to say about this...
Daria 12-25-2006, 02:17 PM This is disturbing to me. I finally was able to fork out the money to purchase a vbulletin license, something I've coveted for a long, long time. While my forum doesn't deal with the types of content this forum does (my site is a writer's site), I still don't want to feel like I have to police the users posts to make sure they adhere to someone's moral ideal.
As is always the case, I'm sure we are missing some parts of the story. Hopefully it will be cleared up soon. Vbulletin is excellent software. I'd hate to see their reputation sullied by censorship issues.
protoss 12-25-2006, 02:47 PM If what I read is true, then the content of the site in question was something all decent people abhor. *If it is true* then I believe we all should support the revocation of the license. *If it is true*
storpappa 12-25-2006, 03:10 PM 1st, congrats to you all for providing link activity and visitors to a pron site - smart move posting the actual site name.
2nd, I have zero concerns about any clown at a software company or a license office thinking they have any pull. I have very secure in the knowledge that no ISP, especially the large ones, had the time or desire to deal with people from acme software company and being thir license police.
Even if you refunded my money tomorrow, I have a valid reciept today and a credit card reciept. The ISP wants the forum hosters business. Anything short of a court order is just kids blowing smoke in the wind.
If you are right, you don't need to discuss these sort of issues publicly unless you want the attention. You hire an attorney, and a real one, not a toilet lawyer. You file a complaint in a court, and you seek a court order. That an ISP will follow with. To do anything else makes cuts, potentially deep deep cuts into their revenue stream.
So much in life is kids, and immature adults, who watch garbage on tv and think its how the US laws, courts and police work. Take a copy coming to your door to ask a question. In TV the suspect runs. In real life the suspect stands there, asks the cops if they have a warrent, tells them to get off the property as they dial 911 to report armed trespassers and makes a statement about feeling their life is in danger and will protect themselves up to and including deadly force.
But that would make for short and unexciting TV shows.
And software piracy is all around us.
And if vBulletin had to check home for a poison pill or had a port and password open to accept an injected poison pill, someone would have found it in the code and sent it out to every vBulletin site by now just to screw with people.
Lastly, as for acceptible use, if Jelsoft wanted acceptable use only, they would interview the site owner, review the domain name, pre-approve its content, and have far less customers.
ninjashoes 12-25-2006, 03:36 PM lol, contact the isp, what a joke
basically their saying they cant do jack shit which is how it should be.......
ps. that cartoon site is sick and those guys should be shot
I don't like hongfire.com or what they dish out over there, but I don't think it's right for Jelsoft to interfere with content. Afterall, they just provide the Bulletin Board software...what people put into it shouldn't matter.
NickT'sGTP 12-25-2006, 04:30 PM I'm disturbed by hongfire.com. And I'm disturbed by the comments made by "big brother".
Jealousy 12-25-2006, 04:51 PM I don't think Jelsoft/VBulletin should moderate what the websites use their software with or how they use it. I dont think the law should watch this type of stuff either, but when it's something as sick as that website, it should be taken down.
Child porn? Come on.
Peggy 12-25-2006, 05:21 PM I'm disturbed by hongfire.com. And I'm disturbed by the comments made by "big brother".Big brother? Could you clarify Nick?
Paul M 12-25-2006, 05:35 PM Firstly, I assume the content on hongfire was more explicit than what's posted on wikipedia, since anyone who thinks that cartoon is child porn needs a reality check - real child porn is sick, that cartoon is little more than dodgy in the minds of a few. You may as well say a family photo of your daughter licking an ice cream is porn.
Secondly, people seem to be confusing Jelsoft with PirateReports - from what I can see, Jelsoft did not make this decision, PirateReports did, but then it's also very confusing as to what decision was actually made - was their licence ever actually revoked, or were they just told it was going to be ? I'm not sure how it works, but I doubt that PirateReports have access to Jelsofts systems to actually revoke licences - more likely they can tell the client they are going to - but need to ask a Jelsoft employee to actually do it.
(BTW, please don't confuse vbulletin.org staff with Jelsoft employees either, we are not employed by them, and have no more knowledge of what happened here than anyone else).
dscurlock 12-25-2006, 05:43 PM 1st, congrats to you all for providing link activity and visitors to a pron site - smart move posting the actual site name.
2nd, I have zero concerns about any clown at a software company or a license office thinking they have any pull. I have very secure in the knowledge that no ISP, especially the large ones, had the time or desire to deal with people from acme software company and being thir license police.
Even if you refunded my money tomorrow, I have a valid reciept today and a credit card reciept. The ISP wants the forum hosters business. Anything short of a court order is just kids blowing smoke in the wind.
If you are right, you don't need to discuss these sort of issues publicly unless you want the attention. You hire an attorney, and a real one, not a toilet lawyer. You file a complaint in a court, and you seek a court order. That an ISP will follow with. To do anything else makes cuts, potentially deep deep cuts into their revenue stream.
So much in life is kids, and immature adults, who watch garbage on tv and think its how the US laws, courts and police work. Take a copy coming to your door to ask a question. In TV the suspect runs. In real life the suspect stands there, asks the cops if they have a warrent, tells them to get off the property as they dial 911 to report armed trespassers and makes a statement about feeling their life is in danger and will protect themselves up to and including deadly force.
But that would make for short and unexciting TV shows.
And software piracy is all around us.
And if vBulletin had to check home for a poison pill or had a port and password open to accept an injected poison pill, someone would have found it in the code and sent it out to every vBulletin site by now just to screw with people.
Lastly, as for acceptible use, if Jelsoft wanted acceptable use only, they would interview the site owner, review the domain name, pre-approve its content, and have far less customers.
Jelsoft is stirring the pot, they are giving themselves a bad name by
even pursuing this... instead of wasting time with someones content
maybe they need to pursue all the owners of VB by putting their
copy of VB over the net, if someone wanted a copy, then its
rather easy to find someone that has their copy online. yes, they
can revoke this persons lic but thats as far as it will go, this person
I heard was in the UK, at best he will not get updates to VB...
so jelsoft is given themselves a reputation... I have not seen the
said website in question, but porn sites are illegal in the US, and
probably would have been taken down by now, but he will not be
easily reached in the UK...
I almost laughed when this jelsoft boasted about his years
in law enforcement, his pretend over-confidence does would
not scare me the least little bit.
if by chance jelsoft did take legal action, they would have to put
up a good amount of money, and if this is the case, then they
need to take legal action over every owner that has their
copy of VB online...it would be stupid to take legal action against
one site that is in violation and not take legal action on other sites.
any type of legal action could be a long up hill costly battle also, not
to mention, it could take months, and months just to be heard...
if it ever reached that far, something as silly as this would not...
just my opinions....
Peggy 12-25-2006, 05:45 PM Paul. Yes the content was much more.. ermmmm... racy?... than what's on Wikipedia. We're talking (from what I've read) about cartoon-ish, animated pics of little girls being sexually molested with objects, among other things.
Animated or not, cartoon-ish or not, it's not ok in my book, and if Jelsoft did revoke the license, it's quite ok with me....... IF that is what happened.
Peggy 12-25-2006, 05:48 PM I almost laughed when this jelsoft boasted about his years
in law enforcement, his pretend over-confidence does would
not scare me the least little bit.
You are mistaking this man from PiratesReports, as a Jelsoft employee.
Joeychgo 12-25-2006, 05:59 PM My .02
First. We dont know who revoked the license. PirateReports has stated they dont have the ability or authority to revoke the license. So who did it? Thats the first question. Apparantly someone contacted the Hosting company and got them to shut off the account. I would like to know who contacted the hosting company.
Second. What the site is about, is meaningless. Regardless of who initiated the process to have that forum shut down, there was no legal basis, from what I can tell, to do so. There is no "Acceptable Use Policy" (AUP) that I'm aware of, and without one that specifically states your license can be revoked for immoral usage, there is no legal authority to do so.
(For the record, I think child porn makers are the bottom scum of the earth. But that is not the issue. Also, I would point out, that site has alot of other content and forums which are not child-ish in any way. Its a site about animation, and apparantly this is a type of animation that is popular.)
That said. My concern is this. If someone can 'judge' the forum's content, and find it to be immoral due to child porn animations, and have the license revoked... Then how long before someone decides Guns are bad, and gun forums are disallowed. Or forums promoting alcohol need to be banned, so any site that talks about bars loses their license. Ive seen a number of forums based on marijuana, they could be immoral also. How about sites that occasionally have a few posts with adult content? Should they go also? Hmmm... What about sites that criticize George Bush or Tony Blair... Them too?
Its a slippery slope. Do you want someone telling you that you need to take certain posts down because it violates their morality? I bet I could find something that could be considered 'inappropriate' on 90% of the forums out there if I tried hard enough.
At this point, I suspect that jelsoft did little to make this happen, and it was all Howard acting on Jelsoft's behalf but upon his own opinions. But I have no direct knowlege of this. This is only my speculation. But if this is the case, I think Jelsoft needs to publically condemn the actions and terminate their relationship with Pirate Reports immediately.
What I do know, is that Jelsoft really needs to be 100% forthcoming on this one so its liscensees and others dont freak anymore then we already have.
Again, this is just my personal opinions, and based upon the information I have in front of me right now.
Night Shaded 12-25-2006, 06:18 PM This is disturbing to me. I finally was able to fork out the money to purchase a vbulletin license, something I've coveted for a long, long time. While my forum doesn't deal with the types of content this forum does (my site is a writer's site), I still don't want to feel like I have to police the users posts to make sure they adhere to someone's moral ideal.
As is always the case, I'm sure we are missing some parts of the story. Hopefully it will be cleared up soon. Vbulletin is excellent software. I'd hate to see their reputation sullied by censorship issues.
I agree with this. My company runs several forums and we simply do not have the money nor the people to police every thread and image that is uploaded. We do what we can but we can't do everything.
If what I read is true, then the content of the site in question was something all decent people abhor. *If it is true* then I believe we all should support the revocation of the license. *If it is true*
Not so. I know several people in real life (some of them I do business with regularly) that have an interest in lolicon. In fact, I know a couple of members of the legislative assembly of this province and a couple of members of parliament that want the Criminal code of Canada rewritten to allow this kind of thing (currently it doesn't). I do not personally think it is wrong because I do not see how this harms children in any way.
I have written my member of parliament several times to ask them to table a revision to the Criminal Code of Canada.
1st, congrats to you all for providing link activity and visitors to a pron site - smart move posting the actual site name.
2nd, I have zero concerns about any clown at a software company or a license office thinking they have any pull. I have very secure in the knowledge that no ISP, especially the large ones, had the time or desire to deal with people from acme software company and being thir license police.
Even if you refunded my money tomorrow, I have a valid reciept today and a credit card reciept. The ISP wants the forum hosters business. Anything short of a court order is just kids blowing smoke in the wind.
If you are right, you don't need to discuss these sort of issues publicly unless you want the attention. You hire an attorney, and a real one, not a toilet lawyer. You file a complaint in a court, and you seek a court order. That an ISP will follow with. To do anything else makes cuts, potentially deep deep cuts into their revenue stream.
So much in life is kids, and immature adults, who watch garbage on tv and think its how the US laws, courts and police work. Take a copy coming to your door to ask a question. In TV the suspect runs. In real life the suspect stands there, asks the cops if they have a warrent, tells them to get off the property as they dial 911 to report armed trespassers and makes a statement about feeling their life is in danger and will protect themselves up to and including deadly force.
But that would make for short and unexciting TV shows.
And software piracy is all around us.
And if vBulletin had to check home for a poison pill or had a port and password open to accept an injected poison pill, someone would have found it in the code and sent it out to every vBulletin site by now just to screw with people.
Lastly, as for acceptible use, if Jelsoft wanted acceptable use only, they would interview the site owner, review the domain name, pre-approve its content, and have far less customers.
Yes, this is why most licence enquiries (especially from my company) are a lot of smoke. If the software cost is worth that much or if they are illegally distributing your software, I can see a problem - but if it costs more to go to court than to purchase the software, you are losing money by bringing this to it's fullest legal potential.
Firstly, I assume the content on hongfire was more explicit than what's posted on wikipedia, since anyone who thinks that cartoon is child porn needs a reality check - real child porn is sick, that cartoon is little more than dodgy in the minds of a few. You may as well say a family photo of your daughter licking an ice cream is porn.
Secondly, people seem to be confusing Jelsoft with PirateReports - from what I can see, Jelsoft did not make this decision, PirateReports did, but then it's also very confusing as to what decision was actually made - was their licence ever actually revoked, or were they just told it was going to be ? I'm not sure how it works, but I doubt that PirateReports have access to Jelsofts systems to actually revoke licences - more likely they can tell the client they are going to - but need to ask a Jelsoft employee to actually do it.
(BTW, please don't confuse vbulletin.org staff with Jelsoft employees either, we are not employed by them, and have no more knowledge of what happened here than anyone else).
You are mistaking this man from PiratesReports, as a Jelsoft employee.
I personally know howard. I worked for him. He likes to think highly of himself as a "moral advocate" when the truth of the matter is that his son is way too busy trashing houses that cost 300,000 pounds sterling that daddy bought for him (he told me this).
Paul. Yes the content was much more.. ermmmm... racy?... than what's on Wikipedia. We're talking (from what I've read) about cartoon-ish, animated pics of little girls being sexually molested with objects, among other things.
Animated or not, cartoon-ish or not, it's not ok in my book, and if Jelsoft did revoke the license, it's quite ok with me....... IF that is what happened.
That's your opinion and under US and UK law, this stuff is legal. And seeing as it is perfectly legal in both of Jelsoft's jurisdictions and it is subjective to one's opinion, there should be no problem with the licencing.
sinjix_media 12-25-2006, 06:46 PM Big brother? Could you clarify Nick?
I think Nick was quoting me when he said "Big Brother" Peggy.
Most people use this term when they are referring to anyone who is watching over them, such as government conspiracies and the like.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3543/index.htm
Peggy 12-25-2006, 06:52 PM Ah thanks Danny
Night Shaded 12-25-2006, 07:05 PM I made a earlier post but it is being held hostage by the moderation queue. Just watch for it.
sinjix_media 12-25-2006, 07:28 PM Ah thanks Danny
No problem :)
dscurlock 12-25-2006, 08:21 PM You are mistaking this man from PiratesReports, as a Jelsoft employee.
it does not really matter at this point who said it, he is just
over confident on what he said...bill collectors are the same,
they bully you, attempt to scare you, and a lot of times
nothing comes out of it, except hot air.
dscurlock 12-25-2006, 08:32 PM My .02
First. We dont know who revoked the license. PirateReports has stated they dont have the ability or authority to revoke the license. So who did it? Thats the first question. Apparantly someone contacted the Hosting company and got them to shut off the account. I would like to know who contacted the hosting company.
Second. What the site is about, is meaningless. Regardless of who initiated the process to have that forum shut down, there was no legal basis, from what I can tell, to do so. There is no "Acceptable Use Policy" (AUP) that I'm aware of, and without one that specifically states your license can be revoked for immoral usage, there is no legal authority to do so.
(For the record, I think child porn makers are the bottom scum of the earth. But that is not the issue. Also, I would point out, that site has alot of other content and forums which are not child-ish in any way. Its a site about animation, and apparantly this is a type of animation that is popular.)
That said. My concern is this. If someone can 'judge' the forum's content, and find it to be immoral due to child porn animations, and have the license revoked... Then how long before someone decides Guns are bad, and gun forums are disallowed. Or forums promoting alcohol need to be banned, so any site that talks about bars loses their license. Ive seen a number of forums based on marijuana, they could be immoral also. How about sites that occasionally have a few posts with adult content? Should they go also? Hmmm... What about sites that criticize George Bush or Tony Blair... Them too?
Its a slippery slope. Do you want someone telling you that you need to take certain posts down because it violates their morality? I bet I could find something that could be considered 'inappropriate' on 90% of the forums out there if I tried hard enough.
At this point, I suspect that jelsoft did little to make this happen, and it was all Howard acting on Jelsoft's behalf but upon his own opinions. But I have no direct knowlege of this. This is only my speculation. But if this is the case, I think Jelsoft needs to publically condemn the actions and terminate their relationship with Pirate Reports immediately.
What I do know, is that Jelsoft really needs to be 100% forthcoming on this one so its liscensees and others dont freak anymore then we already have.
Again, this is just my personal opinions, and based upon the information I have in front of me right now.
someone probably sent emails to the hosting company, more likely hot air bully throwing terms around like "Legal Action" "court order" etc...etc...its very easy to throw these
words down infront of someone, its a complete different story to actually act on them.
these are the exact same words that bill collectors throw around, and 99% of them
are never acted on...
If i was the hosting company, and someone came to me with this complaint, or legal threats I would just say kiss my ass, this problem is between jelsoft and the VB owner, as long as he
is paying his hosting fees, then he is fine with me... I am not jelsoft's police enforcer...
Hell³ 12-25-2006, 08:46 PM I made a earlier post but it is being held hostage by the moderation queue. Just watch for it.
Your post is visible now.
Peggy 12-25-2006, 08:58 PM That's your opinion and under US and UK law, this stuff is legal. And seeing as it is perfectly legal in both of Jelsoft's jurisdictions and it is subjective to one's opinion, there should be no problem with the licencing.
Exactly, this is my opinion. Little girls being molested by objects is sick, demented, and horrible... cartoon or not, animated or not, legal or not. That is my opinion.
ninjashoes 12-25-2006, 11:24 PM Its nothing to worry about really, theres plenty of other board software out there some that are even free. I don't think Jelsoft is going to try to force any messed up moral agenda on anyone. They don't seem to have a problem with warez either. I have noticed 2 things they don't like though
1.stolen credit card numbers being traded or passed out
2.vbulletin specific warez being traded like cracked boards etc.
If they allow warez boards or at least overlook them for the most part then I think we have nothing to worry about. Some of the biggest and best vbulletin boards were about Marijuana or Porn. If they wanna mess with some sicko kiddie porn traders then power to them.
btw good idea Joeychgo with this thread!
Joeychgo 12-25-2006, 11:24 PM Exactly, this is my opinion. Little girls being molested by objects is sick, demented, and horrible... cartoon or not, animated or not, legal or not. That is my opinion.
I agree completely Peggy. However...... The issue is much larger. Do we want the self appointed internet morality police deciding what is acceptable or not?
ninjashoes 12-25-2006, 11:25 PM Exactly, this is my opinion. Little girls being molested by objects is sick, demented, and horrible... cartoon or not, animated or not, legal or not. That is my opinion.
Its not nearly as bad but its still pretty sick. Just the idea that these guys are fantasizing about little girls makes me want to entrap them with a scheme and murder them.
All pedophiles deserve painful death and then should burn in hell.
Peggy 12-26-2006, 03:10 AM I agree completely Peggy. However...... The issue is much larger. Do we want the self appointed internet morality police deciding what is acceptable or not?
Now Joey, you probably already knew my answer when you asked that question.
When it comes to kids... having an "internet morality police" doesn't bother me in the least.
Its not nearly as bad but its still pretty sick. Just the idea that these guys are fantasizing about little girls makes me want to entrap them with a scheme and murder them.
All pedophiles deserve painful death and then should burn in hell.LOL.. you GO!
Joeychgo 12-26-2006, 03:44 AM Now Joey, you probably already knew my answer when you asked that question.
When it comes to kids... having an "internet morality police" doesn't bother me in the least.
On that specific subject only, I cant disagree. But, my concern is more about the concept that someone would run around judging content, and maybe pulling licenses. Then we get into all kinds of problems. Its a slippery slope and its best not to even go near it.
maximoose666 12-26-2006, 03:57 AM Exactly, this is my opinion. Little girls being molested by objects is sick, demented, and horrible... cartoon or not, animated or not, legal or not. That is my opinion.
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/index.php
Click the link. It's a standard anime site, not some kind of prevert's paradise.
As far as I can see, there's one subforum devoted to 'lolicon', and that is all. Is it right to revoke an entire license simply because one corner of the site is being used for dubious purposes?
Secondly, it is worth considering the difference between anime and real life. You may find the idea of little girls having sex to be demented and horrible - most people do! Which is why child porn sites are illegal. There's a vast difference between pictures which are part of an industry of actual child abuse, and pictures which are merely the product of some lustful artist's exaggerated fantasy.
After all, in the renaissance era it was not unusual for artists to depict girls as young as twelve as sexual objects. But no one is bashing down the door of the art gallery to destroy these works. Because imagining is not the same as doing.
You may certainly find both categories to be sick, wrong, demented and horrible; and I do too.
However, only one category is really illegal, which is why Jelsoft was right to reinstate HongFire's license.
Peggy 12-26-2006, 04:14 AM On that specific subject only, I cant disagree. But, my concern is more about the concept that someone would run around judging content, and maybe pulling licenses. Then we get into all kinds of problems. Its a slippery slope and its best not to even go near it.
I know what you're saying, and you're probably right. But I have to stick to my opinion on that specific subject, stubborn as I am.
Big Dan 12-26-2006, 04:41 AM My two cents: I don't agree with the content of that site so I choose not to visit it. I'm sure there are helluva a lot worse sites online. vBulletin has no screening process when you a buy a license. In fact all you need to do is list the URL where vB will be install and specify weather or not it's adult in nature. Specifying adult natured sites is only so vBulletin won't list it in their directory, if in fact it is adult natured.
I have a problem with ponying up the cash for a license and someone deciding my site doesn't fit in to the developers definition of acceptable. If vB believed something was illegal was taking place, they could've "dropped the dime" to law enforcement. That would of stopped the whole PR nightmare and they wouldn't have to refund a time if the police shut down the site, as it's out of their control.
Danny
subnet_rx 12-26-2006, 08:17 AM I think this is an extreme case. I'm not concerned about this because my forums don't contain this kind of content, but if I read the license agreement I agreed to and it said that I may not use this software for content of a morally objectionable nature, then I would comply or change my software.
Dave A 12-26-2006, 08:18 AM Is there a warning that cannot be bypassed about the nature of the content on the site in question? If not, then I would suggest there is a breach of acceptable use because if I visit the site and download one of these images, I will have committed a criminal act in my country.
I think the freedoms we would like to see on the internet must go hand-in-hand with a certain level of responsibility. In this instance proper notification that you may be about to view potentially objectionable content. I need to keep this to a short post right now so please excuse me that I don't go into in-depth definitions of objectionable content, but there has to be a convention out there as to what constitutes responsible behaviour without limiting freedom of speech.
I suggest that this is as far as Jelsoft is obliged to go as a responsible supplier of software. The balance of the matter falls in the ambit of whatever regulatory entity that has jurisdiction over the ownership, hosting or viewing of the site.
In saying that, Jelsoft has the right to set in advance of supply conditions on the use of their software, and we have the right to accept and use, or reject and go elsewhere.
Peggy 12-26-2006, 08:41 AM http://www.hongfire.com/forum/index.php
Click the link. It's a standard anime site, not some kind of prevert's paradise.
As far as I can see, there's one subforum devoted to 'lolicon', and that is all. Is it right to revoke an entire license simply because one corner of the site is being used for dubious purposes?
I did visit the site, when the story first broke. :)
I stand by my opinion.
jilly 12-26-2006, 02:42 PM Sounds to me like the pirate reports guy took it upon himself to do that - But it seems totally wrong to me. Several Issues Here:
1. Immoral vs Illegal - this would be up to the local police to decide, or the FBI or CIA or whatever if it's here in the US. Not this Mr. Spinks guy. Sounds like he was playing judge and jury here. One person's immoral is another person's normal fun. The law has guidelines on what is illegal and if it crosses that line, then they pay the proce for breaking the law. But that shouldn't be up to Spinks or Jelsoft!
2. vBulletin is software, it's not HOSTING. I would think that anyone who buys a vBulletin can use it for any topic they want, and if that topic is found to be illegal, it's up to the hosting company to take the site down. Or up to the police to make them take it down if they are running their own server, and/or face prosecution.
In my opinion, even if the topic being covered on a vBulletin was illegal, it would not be up to vBulletin to 'revoke the license' - vBulletin shouldn't get in to doing this - it shouldn't be in the lane of a software company
for example:
vBulletin is software, like Windows is software.
If someone's local computer was found to have 'kiddie porn' on it, would Microsoft indignantly revoke their license to use Windows, and tell them to remove it and run Linux or something? No.. The software that runs a computer or server is not held responsible for what gets done with it (nor should they!) The person running the computer is the one responsible, and local law enforcement is who should be policing it.
3. If vBulletin doesn't have a caveat like that (we are not responsible for content of sites that use vB software), then they should probably add it asap. (lol)
And as a PR person, they need to immediately make a decision on this and put out a press release before it gets out of hand!
Joeychgo 12-26-2006, 02:52 PM And as a PR person, they need to immediately make a decision on this and put out a press release before it gets out of hand!
I agree....But..
Seems the thread has now been deleted on vBulletin.
So im guessing the PR tatic is now to sweep it all under the rug.
Night Shaded 12-26-2006, 03:33 PM Its not nearly as bad but its still pretty sick. Just the idea that these guys are fantasizing about little girls makes me want to entrap them with a scheme and murder them.
All pedophiles deserve painful death and then should burn in hell.
I personally am not a big fan of lolita (I want to find serious relationships in life) but I run numerous anime forums/community and I know that lolita may uploaded to my board despite my company's rules. I don't want my board to be delicenced based on illicit content.
And, furthermore, I am a big fan of freedom of speech. I believe they should have their own part of the web.
Sincerely,
Kyle Korleski
Joeychgo 12-26-2006, 03:40 PM What really bothered me was this:
Howard G Spinks
Dec 21st '06 02:18pm
Hello
The matter is not up for debate as you can either remove the morally devoid items as requested, or take your activities to another software.
You have had time to act as requested and I am having your license revoked under the Jelsoft Acceptable Use Policy and continued use of the software will be illegal and will result in your forum being deleted by your network.
I assure you that my 35 years in law enforcement have not been wasted as you appear to be insinuating.
Regards
Howard G Spinks
Jelsoft Licensing & Anti Piracy Agent
www.piratereports.com (http://www.piratereports.com/)
It seems so personal.....
qryztufre 12-27-2006, 04:42 AM My fear would be that today it's toony pr0n, tomorrow it'll be forums that use the "f word" and my forums fit someplace in the middle...and I really don't wanna use any of the free boards I've seen.
Personally, I feared the rules of my Host more then the agree with my software, and I hope that this does not change. If this is some strange isolated incident then "sorry bout yer luck" if this will become the norm, then drag nabbit... I *just* crossed the line for getting a refund ;)
Q
KimmiKat 12-27-2006, 04:46 PM I was listening to a local talk show on computers and someone called in and mentioned this and heard vBulletin and Pirate Reports (PR) pulling the Hongfile site. After checking around, it was wrong for either Jelsoft or PR to pull the site, regardless of the content involved. What's next, someone says something bad about George Bush and losing your license?
Although Jelsoft and PR are seperate entities, one of the Jelsoft's staff is the webmaster for the Pirate Reports site.
Until this happened, I gave high regards to vB and PR (Howard), but now due to this action, they lost my respect.
A local paper gives an award to stupid things done by government or companies and they call it the "Stubbed-Toe" award. They should give one to PR and vB.
Edit: Looks like this won't be the last...
Link: http://www.piratereports.com/showthread.php?t=2510
Peggy 12-27-2006, 05:15 PM I think ol' Howard's been tipping a few too many this holiday week..... :rolleyes:
Joeychgo 12-27-2006, 05:29 PM What bothers me is that we dont have a straight story. Alot of copy and pasting going on, but neither Howard nor vB have made an official statement as to what happened and what the policy is regarding "morally objectionable" content and the vB license.
All vB has to do is come forth and make a statement - same with PR.
Now I see Howard making veiled threats on his site -
There are a few forums based in the US who should take note of this as I am recording all misinformation and derogatory content for use at the earliest opportunity.
http://www.piratereports.com/showthread.php?t=2510
Ive made it clear - all I want to know is the real story and the policy of vB. Both vB and PR are encouraged to post this information.
KimmiKat 12-28-2006, 01:16 PM I was almost tempted to post a reply to his thread saying he should worry more about protecting vB from piracy then worry about not so nice content on boards with legal licenses, but he would probably delete the reply or even lock the thread. I have a feeling it's Howard is persueing the content thing more then Jelsoft is. If you do a Google search on the matter, it's all over the place.
Now I see Howard making veiled threats on his site -
http://www.piratereports.com/showthread.php?t=2510
Ive made it clear - all I want to know is the real story and the policy of vB. Both vB and PR are encouraged to post this information.
Daria 12-29-2006, 03:52 PM I was almost tempted to post a reply to his thread saying he should worry more about protecting vB from piracy then worry about not so nice content on boards with legal licenses, but he would probably delete the reply or even lock the thread. I have a feeling it's Howard is persueing the content thing more then Jelsoft is. If you do a Google search on the matter, it's all over the place.
I'm almost 100% you're right. People who are innocent of wrongdoing don't usually dance around throwing out random, vague and unfounded threats. They usually just come right out and say what's what.
While it's nice to have a bulldog looking out for your best interests I think Jelsoft needs to do pop this one in the nose and put him in is place before he ruins them.
Big Kahuna 01-04-2007, 03:54 PM While I'm not a big fan of software becoming the morality police -- I don't have anything ever on my site that would cause me a moments concern.
I don't visit porn sits -- or sites that propigate abuse or hate.
So this is a subject that has me:
1. Not concerned with my license
2. Not sheading a tear for a porn site having problems
3. Thinking Vbulletin needs to mind its own business instead of branching out into the church lady business.
Joeychgo 01-04-2007, 06:23 PM So this is a subject that has me:
1. Not concerned with my license
2. Not sheading a tear for a porn site having problems
3. Thinking Vbulletin needs to mind its own business instead of branching out into the church lady business.
I cant disagree with you there.
qryztufre 01-05-2007, 04:01 AM While I'm not a big fan of software becoming the morality police -- I don't have anything ever on my site that would cause me a moments concern.
I don't visit porn sits -- or sites that propigate abuse or hate.
So this is a subject that has me:
1. Not concerned with my license
2. Not sheading a tear for a porn site having problems
3. Thinking Vbulletin needs to mind its own business instead of branching out into the church lady business.
I cant disagree with you there.
I have a concern for my license... today it's cartoon pr0n, tomorrow it's art, and the day after that it'll be any non-Christian religions ~ and that's where I start to checking into how much the other forum's cost.
Though, the site in question is back up, and VB is locking it's topics... it's nice to see that the matter was taken care of...even if never actually resolved.
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